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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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 Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border

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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
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Location : Down South.

Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border Empty
PostSubject: Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border   Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptyFri Aug 26, 2011 11:33 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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RALPH HINZE



Posts : 12
Join date : 2011-10-13
Age : 52
Location : Piet Retief, South Africa

Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border Empty
PostSubject: Re: Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border   Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptyTue Nov 15, 2011 9:59 am

Is there any indication in the text of the newspaper of where this camp is supposed to be? The 80th were stationed at Luneburg at some time during the Zulu war. I live near Luneburg and know the area quite well. I don't recognise the shape of the mountains as being the ones at Luneburg, but it could be that the artist made the shapes up. Perhaps they had other camps as well. Does anybody know more about the 80th's movements during the Zulu war? Perhaps you can fill us in?

There is also another engraving in the ILN of 3 May 1879 which shows Luneburg and the Pongola River.
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barry

barry

Posts : 922
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border Empty
PostSubject: 80th's camp site at Luneberg;   Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptyTue Nov 15, 2011 2:33 pm

Hi Ralph,
I might have something on this.
Give me a day or two to go through the records and if suceesful I will revert.

barry

PS; I often travel through Piet Retief and Vryheid and was there 14 days ago.
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kwajimu1879

kwajimu1879

Posts : 420
Join date : 2011-05-14

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PostSubject: Re: Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border   Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptyTue Nov 15, 2011 2:52 pm

Ralph,
I'll check when I'm at home.
The mountains might have been in the mind of the engraver rather than the artist of the original sketch, who I believe in that case was Lt. B.W.R. Ussher of the 80th.
kwaJimu1879
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Guest
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Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border Empty
PostSubject: Re: Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border   Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptyTue Nov 15, 2011 3:47 pm

This is from the Illustrated London News:

“The Illustration presented on our front page this week is a view of the camp of the 80th Regiment at Derby, for which we are indebted to a sketch by Lieutenant Beverley W. R. Ussher of that regiment. Derby is in the Transvaal territory, beyond the northern border of Zululand, and close to the Swazi country over which Cetewayo has always claimed a sovereignty, disputed by the Transvaal government. It is a distant of above a hundred miles from the Natal frontier, being situated quite on the opposite side of the Zulu kingdom.” (Source: Illustrated London New, April 19, 1879)


Petty Officer Tom
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90th

90th

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Location : Melbourne, Australia

Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border Empty
PostSubject: Camp of the 80th Regt on the zulu border    Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptyWed Nov 16, 2011 1:44 am

Hi Ralph.
Firstly welcome to the forum , you cant go past this publication on the 80th Regt , I imagine all your questions will be answered here . This is also a very good price .

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

cheers 90th. Idea
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RALPH HINZE



Posts : 12
Join date : 2011-10-13
Age : 52
Location : Piet Retief, South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border   Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptyWed Nov 16, 2011 3:43 pm

Thanks for all your answers. Very interesting! I will try to get the book you recommended, 90th.

Derby is just a few miles north of Piet Retief, where I live and work. Today it is a very small place of no real significance.

During the Zulu War the garrison in Lüneburg was supplied from their depot at Derby. Some of these supply wagons were attacked and plundered during the Intombi Drift massacre.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border   Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptyFri Nov 18, 2011 12:10 pm

The Luneburg Lager was built around their church by the German Settlers. On 19th October the lager was occupied by Major CF Clery and 2 companies of the 90th Light Infantry. The lager was strengthened and the adjoining graveyard fortified. In December 2 companies of the 1/13th Light Infantry and the dismounted Kaffrarian Rifles occupied the lager, succeeded on the 9th Feb 1879 by 5 companies of the 80th Staffordshire under Major C Tucker. They were relieved on 9th April by 2 companies of the 2/4th Kings Own Rifles under Major WF Blake. The adjacent Fort Clery ( earthwork) was built during November 1878.

Hope that helps.

Regards
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RALPH HINZE



Posts : 12
Join date : 2011-10-13
Age : 52
Location : Piet Retief, South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border   Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptySat Nov 19, 2011 10:12 am

Thanks Springbok 9. Where did you get all that information?

I wrote a book about my family in German, the Hinze clan, in 2008. I still mean to translate it later. In it I incorporated a life history by a greatgreatgrandmother of mine, Marie Rabe, in which she wrote about the Zulu war and the laager around the church, which you mentioned. The dates in her account are not mentioned in detail, however, because she wrote the account much later, in 1904, only.

She mentions 2 episodes of a Zulu impi coming very near the laager. The first time was before the British came to Lüneburg. She says the Zulus fetched wood and built a cattle kraal near the laager and then left. I have read somewhere that Cetshwayo had sent them to build this kraal as a beacon to say that he considered the land to be his.

The second episode was a Zulu impi that came near the laager while most men where out with the British soldiers, harvesting crops on the surrounding farms. Both times the inhabitants of the laager kept their cool and didn't shoot at the Zulus, who outnumbered them by far, and the Zulus moved on.

I always wondered also, why there was so little left of the laager around the old Lüneburg church next to the churchyard. Marie Rabe mentions that when the First Boer War started in 1881, the Transvaal government expected the Lüneburg men to fight for the Boers. They protested that they didn't see fit to fight again after all the losses they had had during the recent Zulu war. Also, of cause, they didn't want to fight te British, who had protected them in the AZW. They were allowed to stay neutral on condition that they dismantled their fortifications, so it couldn't be used by the British. This they duly did and that is why so little can be seen of the Laager today. The earthworks of Fort Clery can still be seen near where the school hostel is today.
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johann engelbrecht



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PostSubject: Re: Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border   Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptySat Nov 19, 2011 1:45 pm

A stone wall around the present church at Lüneburg, situated about 200 meters south of the original church laager, was constructed with the stones that formed part of the 15ft high stone wall. That also explains in part why not much is left of the original protective wall around the church at the time of the war. The first incident Mrs. Marie Rabe mentions, took place in mid-November in 1877 as described on page 134 in the Boiling Couldron by Huw Jones and the second incident on 4 April 1879.


Last edited by johann engelbrecht on Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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barry

barry

Posts : 922
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

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PostSubject: Luneburg redoubt   Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptySat Nov 19, 2011 6:11 pm

Hi Johan and Ralph,

Welcome to both of you.
As you are both in Piet Retief , not too far from Luneberg, you would be rendering future generations a great service if you could get together and document the Luneberg redoubt location and floor layout as closely as possibly. Simple line drawings based around present identifiable structures on the present site as well as digital photography will go a long way towards achieving this. Please add map grid co-ords as well. Most people these days have hand held GPS's so this should not be too much of a problem. Google Earth is always there too for this.
I am presently working , along these lines, on Fort Yollond which is 79.46 kms ese of Isandlwana.
Howick will be next.
regards,

barry


Last edited by barry on Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
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Location : Down South.

Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border Empty
PostSubject: Re: Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border   Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptySat Nov 19, 2011 7:26 pm

Quote :
Is there any indication in the text of the newspaper of where this camp is supposed to be?

This is all that accompanied the newspaper article originally posted.

"Camp 80th regiment zulu war soldiers horses cows 1879" .
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RALPH HINZE



Posts : 12
Join date : 2011-10-13
Age : 52
Location : Piet Retief, South Africa

Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border Empty
PostSubject: Re: Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border   Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptyMon Nov 21, 2011 1:34 pm

Thanks for all the replies.

Thanks for the information and the dates Jahann and Barry. I think it is a very good idea to put the different features on a map with their GPS co-ordinates. Johann, I think we will have to ask your dad to point out the exact spot of the laager to us. Even farm house vanish over the years,e.g. that of Marie Rabe. The present house on that farm is in a very different spot than the original one.

Littlehand, Petty Officer Tom has filled us in on the text inside the ILN newspaper describing the scene. Does anybody have the ILN of 3 May 1879 with the picture of "Luneberg and the Pongola River"? What does the text inside say about the picture? Perhaps Petty Officer Tom can fill us in on that one too?
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RALPH HINZE



Posts : 12
Join date : 2011-10-13
Age : 52
Location : Piet Retief, South Africa

Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border Empty
PostSubject: Re: Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border   Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptyMon Nov 21, 2011 3:02 pm

To summarise the information we have gathered so far about Lüneburg in chronological order:

Before November 1877- The German settlers of Lüneburg build a laager around their church.

Mid-November 1877- Zulus impi threatens the Lüneburg laager. The Zulus fetched wood and built a cattle kraal near the laager and then left. Cetshwayo had sent them to build this kraal as a beacon to say that he considered the land to be his. (described on page 134 in the Boiling Couldron by Huw Jones)

19 October 1878- The laager was occupied by Major CF Clery and 2 companies of the 90th Light Infantry. The lager was strengthened and the adjoining graveyard fortified.

November 1878- Fort Clery (earthwork) was built at Lüneburg.

In December 1878- 2 companies of the 1/13th Light Infantry and the dismounted Kaffrarian Rifles occupied the lager.

9 Feb 1879- 5 companies of the 80th Staffordshire under Major C Tucker occupy the laager.

4 April 1879- A Zulu impi came near the laager while most men where out with the British soldiers, harvesting crops on the surrounding farms. Both times the Zulus came near the laager, the inhabitants of the laager kept their cool and didn't shoot at the Zulus, who outnumbered them by far, and the Zulus moved on.

9 April 1879- 2 companies of the 2/4th Kings Own Rifles under Major WF Blake occupy the laager.

19 April 1879- ILN publishes picture of “Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border” (at Derby). The caption inside the newspaper reads:

“The Illustration presented on our front page this week is a view of the camp of the 80th Regiment at Derby, for which we are indebted to a sketch by Lieutenant Beverley W. R. Ussher of that regiment. Derby is in the Transvaal territory, beyond the northern border of Zululand, and close to the Swazi country over which Cetewayo has always claimed a sovereignty, disputed by the Transvaal government. It is a distant of above a hundred miles from the Natal frontier, being situated quite on the opposite side of the Zulu kingdom.” (Source: Illustrated London New, April 19, 1879)

3 May 1879- ILN publishes picture of “Luneberg and Pongola River”

1881- The fortifications at Lüneburg are dismantled.
When the First Boer War started in 1881, the Transvaal government expected the Lüneburg men to fight for the Boers. They protested that they didn't see fit to fight again after all the losses they had had during the recent Zulu war. Also, of cause, they didn't want to fight te British, who had protected them in the AZW. They were allowed to stay neutral on condition that they dismantled their fortifications, so it couldn't be used by the British. This they duly did and that is why so little can be seen of the Laager today.

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johann engelbrecht



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Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border Empty
PostSubject: Re: Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border   Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptyMon Nov 21, 2011 5:58 pm

Hi Ralph,
the foundation of the church around which the stone wall was constructed can still be seen at the settler monument, while some of the remaining stones of the wall can still be seen on the southern side, towards the present church. According to Pastor Filter, Heinrich Filter was having tea with his mother, inside the laager before the fatefull ambush on June 6,1879. If you stand behind the monument, looking over to the homestead of Mr. Heimo Niebuhr, you can just imagine the anguish and fear of Mrs. Filter, witnessing the attack on her son!
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Brett Hendey

Brett Hendey

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PostSubject: Re: Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border   Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptyMon Nov 21, 2011 6:00 pm

Ralph

Thank you for posting a very interesting record.

Regards
Brett
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RALPH HINZE



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Location : Piet Retief, South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border   Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptyThu Nov 24, 2011 4:00 pm

Could somebody please explain to me how to post a photo onto the forum?

I have the picture of "Luneberg and the Pongola River" that I would like you to see. Unfortunately the resolution isn't too great, but at least it gives one an idea of what we were talking about.

If someone has a high resolution version of it, I would be gratful if you could perhaps post yours rather than to wait for mine.

Also, as I asked before, does anybody have the text of the article in ILN that goes with the picture?
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barry

barry

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PostSubject: Lunaberg Pictures   Camp of the 80th Regiment on the Zulu Border EmptyFri Nov 25, 2011 8:53 am


Hi Ralph,
To get your pics into the forum, email : [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Give him a caption with all the detail that you want to go with the picture.


regards,

barry
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