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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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» Surgeon Espine Charles Ward
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» Lieutenant-Colonel David Campbell Williamson.
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» Tpr. John Ross Natal Carbineer
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» Victorian HMS SHAH South Africa Zulu Wars Medal William Morrison Royal Navy
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» South African 1879 Zulu War medal to Corp R Starkey 57th Regiment of Foot
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» England's Sons 9th edition
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» Strange tales from Isandlwana
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» Colour - Sergeant George William Mabin
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» Militaria Sale
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» Men of the 24th Regiment of Foot - Secunderabad, India 1873
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» Rorkes drift Hotel
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» Durnford's medical officer
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» Charles Sparks - any information available?
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 Isandlwana, Last Stands

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John

John

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Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyFri Sep 13, 2013 7:23 am

90th We are talking Isandlwana (F) Location. doesn't really matter what other battles fired or didn't or how long they took to fire.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyFri Sep 13, 2013 7:49 am

Rates of fire, supply of ammunition! All means very little really when there is indications on three seperate maps ( Mainwaring, Anstey and Norris Newman) all agree that there was a major firing line with a lot of expended cartridge cases. No more than a couple of yeasr ago, while researching HCMDB Mike Snook took up a firing position nestled into the rocks to get a feeling of the fight, he dislodged a rock and saw 6 empty cases. I have two I found in the same position, unfortunatly the photo is a little blurred.
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They are still there.

Cheers
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John

John

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyFri Sep 13, 2013 8:15 am

Springbok. I think your find, Snook found them near a boulder on the slopes of the Devil's pass Hlobane, Neil was with him, and there are photo's somewhere on the forum!
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana ; Last stands    Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyFri Sep 13, 2013 8:19 am

John I was attempiting to answer Littlehands post from yesterday ! . No 
90th.
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John

John

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyFri Sep 13, 2013 8:25 am

But it's not relevant to the question!  (F) location Isandlwana and empty cartridges is?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyFri Sep 13, 2013 9:50 am

Hi John
No, that was a separate occasion that Neil located some casings.

Cheers
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littlehand

littlehand

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Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptySun Jul 20, 2014 8:37 pm

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B&W

On the reference table (I) who would have been in that area? Cains  
Some may need a magnifying glass.

source:http://ayfamilyhistory.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/z-is-for-zulu-war.html
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Guest
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Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptySun Jul 20, 2014 9:58 pm

13-11-1879,Photographed at the Intelligence Branch,
Quarter Master General's Dept. July 1880. i have an
original copy as some know, but i'm afraid it is to big
to get under my home scanner. shame as the image
would be crystal clear. well done littlehand..always
the man who can.
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24th

24th

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Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptySun Jul 20, 2014 10:13 pm

The cains you speak of LH. Isn't that where Roberts was supposedly killed by British artillery?
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptySun Jul 20, 2014 10:16 pm

Littlehand,

The two cannon of N/5 were positioned at point H, according to the Mainwaring map and were shelling the Zulu at the 'kraal' at point I.  I presume this was the location of the 'friendly fire' incident involving Roberts of No. 2 Troop, Zikhali's Horse.

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There are three cairns: one in front of the mountain in front of the letter 'F'; another to the right of the letter 'E' and one to the left of 'C'.

Here's the map's legend - like Les I have one too.

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The Legend of Lt. Mainwaring's Map.


John Y.
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24th

24th

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptySun Jul 20, 2014 11:13 pm

Does anyone have a clearer map! Or as clear as JY images.
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptySun Jul 20, 2014 11:16 pm

24th,

Will this do?

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If you follow the link it is rather large!

John Y.
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24th

24th

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptySun Jul 20, 2014 11:24 pm

That will do nicely. Thanks John!
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyMon Jul 21, 2014 8:11 am

LH
The point 'I' on the Mainwaring map is below the ridge in more or less the same position as the present day church. In the Biography of Rev Smith by Canon Lumis it is mentioned the amount of bodies they had to move away to establish their campsite. The position of the Roberts issue is wide open to speculation. There were other kraals on the heights, two of which are mentioned in the Zulu statements.

Cheers
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyMon Jul 21, 2014 9:13 am

If someone was walking away from Isandlwana. Which direction would they be walking. If they could see the whole of Isandlwana in the form of a lion behind them. Would it be towards location (I)
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyMon Jul 21, 2014 9:23 am

LH Due East, more down towards point 'G' and beyond.

Cheers
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Guest
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Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyMon Jul 21, 2014 3:17 pm

Just seeing how high the dpi will go!

Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 Mainwaring1_zps500cc884
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Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyMon Jul 21, 2014 3:17 pm

so thats at 4000 dpi.
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6pdr

6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyMon Jul 21, 2014 5:16 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
so thats at 4000 dpi.

It opened instantly and I could read where it said "very broken ground" pretty clearly.
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyMon Jul 21, 2014 8:08 pm

Springbok, would that be in the direction of the place we are discussing off line?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyTue Jul 22, 2014 11:22 am

LH
Exactly the place.

Cheers
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyTue Jul 22, 2014 11:50 pm

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Does anyone know if the stone wall was in place during the Battle 1879. If not a wall, what could it have been? Information appricated.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 8:25 am

LH
There are a couple of possibilities
Attached is a photo of the Colonial graves, you can see a section of wall to the left.
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Alternatly there are a number of erosion barriers on the site
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There is somewhere a reference to a wall built by the engineers but I think that position refered to is on the saddle.

Cheers
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptySun Apr 21, 2019 11:53 pm

I just happen to open this page and after reading trooper Granger testimony he mentions of fighting behind a cattle kraal below blacks koppie it is on Mainwaring map positioned beside the Kraal the above photo looks like a modern wall but it is located close to the one Trooper Granger made his short stand from before he made escape.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyMon Apr 22, 2019 9:54 am

The exact location of Granger's stone wall (kraal) is given by a contemporary map and photos of its remains on pp. 70-1 of my Granger Essay in Studies in the Zulu War Vol. V.  Littlehand's photo has no date that it was taken (though clearly a colour photo must be fairly modern).  Frank is the best person to answer inkosi's question as he walked the ground and took the photos of the remains of the ruined kraal for the Granger essay.  He would know immediately if it was the same location.
Certainly, Littlehand, I would be interested to learn your photo's date.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyMon Apr 22, 2019 10:49 am

im pretty sure thats a Gabion, built to stop erosion just below the Colonial graves. The 'Grainger ' wall is some 200 metre to the South on the other side of the road.

frank
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyMon Apr 22, 2019 4:33 pm

See, inkosi? I knew Frank was your man!
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyTue Apr 23, 2019 7:59 am

I DID SAY IT WAS A MODERN WALL
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyTue Apr 23, 2019 10:35 am

Well, you said it 'looks like a modern wall' but rightly made the link to Granger. It is good to clear up that the two are unrelated and not to be confused.
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyThu May 09, 2019 12:36 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
LH
There are a couple of possibilities
Attached is a photo of the Colonial graves, you can see a section of wall to the left.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Alternatly there are a number of erosion barriers on the site
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

There is somewhere a reference to a wall built by the engineers but I think that position refered to is on the saddle.

Cheers

Bonjour,
Just for information:
Burial party (1880): Lieut. O' Connell, 60th Rifles.
"A trench was dug on the upper side of the place where the Carbineers were buried, and a small wall made along the side of the trench to prevent the earth falling into it and filling it up again. This will prevent the water running down the hill and washing the earth of these graves".
Cheers
frédéric
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyThu May 09, 2019 1:44 pm

Fred there is a structure matching your description, Ive sent you a photo, if your able possibly you could post it.
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyThu May 09, 2019 4:18 pm

Frank's photo.

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Steve
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 22 EmptyThu May 09, 2019 4:34 pm

Bonjour Steve,
Thank you very much.
Cordialement.
Fred
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