WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu. Lieutenant John Chard: The army doesn't like more than one disaster in a day. Bromhead: Looks bad in the newspapers and upsets civilians at their breakfast.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» The Pictorial World - March 15th 1879
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyYesterday at 1:13 pm by ben2000

» The lost diary of Pvt James Owen
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyThu Jul 25, 2024 12:03 pm by miklew

» Last of the 24th at Isandhlwana
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyWed Jul 24, 2024 6:16 pm by John Young

» What was the uniform of field marshals/generals in the zulu war?
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyMon Jul 22, 2024 6:53 am by John Young

» Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptySat Jul 20, 2024 12:17 pm by SRB1965

» Capt. D. Hayes 1/3rd Regt., NNC
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyThu Jul 18, 2024 11:11 am by Julian Whybra

» The Wrecked Camp
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyWed Jul 17, 2024 4:33 pm by Julian Whybra

» Private N/N John Robert Branch 90th Regiment and his discovered diary
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyMon Jul 15, 2024 8:53 pm by 1879graves

» Private John Scott 24th Regiment a fugitive at large
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptySun Jul 14, 2024 12:06 pm by 1879graves

» 90th foot sgt T. Collins 214
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptySun Jul 14, 2024 10:57 am by johnman

» Baron Von Steitencron
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyWed Jul 10, 2024 3:10 pm by Julian Whybra

» Sgt Joseph Windridge, Defender of Rorke's Drift - Memorial
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyTue Jul 09, 2024 3:15 am by 90th

» Writing advice
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptySun Jul 07, 2024 4:04 pm by Julian Whybra

» South Africa 1877-79, 1 clasp, 1877-8-9 (4389 Fr. Sergt. S. Smith. O/2. Bde. R.A.)
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptySun Jul 07, 2024 9:30 am by rai

» The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN

» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN

» Any nominal role of G Coy 2/24th regiment
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 11:18 am by Wayne

» Bassage Diary
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 9:31 am by Julian Whybra

» Prior to Sihayo's Kraal
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 9:19 am by 90th

» British Fort Locations
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 3:40 am by 90th

» Sergeant 1064 Tom Hick / Hicks G Company 2/24th Regiment
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyWed Jul 03, 2024 11:05 am by Julian Whybra

» A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyFri Jun 28, 2024 2:31 pm by Mr M. Cooper

» Private 25B/279 Henry Sears Bugler E Company 24th Reg. KIA Isandlwana
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyThu Jun 27, 2024 1:07 pm by gardner1879

» Hamilton Browne's birthday
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyFri Jun 21, 2024 9:22 am by Julian Whybra

» Zulu "Corps"
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 6:01 pm by Hobbes

» Army Pay Department Personnel
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 11:49 am by Julian Whybra

» Ntshingwayo birth date
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptySun Jun 16, 2024 11:37 am by Hobbes

» Zibhebhu and Cetshwayo's family
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyWed Jun 05, 2024 9:11 pm by Julian Whybra

» Smith's Store/Hotel
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyWed Jun 05, 2024 6:06 pm by Julian Whybra

» Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company.
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyTue Jun 04, 2024 5:20 pm by Julian Whybra

» Shaka iLembe
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptySat Jun 01, 2024 1:27 pm by Jon84

» Bugler 1415 Thomas Finn / Flin 90th Regiment
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptySat May 25, 2024 11:28 am by johnman

» Inspector-General Evelyn Richard Hugh Pollard
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyTue May 14, 2024 10:13 am by ADMIN

» Alfred Fairlie Henderson photographs.
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptySat May 11, 2024 8:01 am by Julian Whybra

» Fairlie's Native Police
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyThu May 02, 2024 9:12 pm by Hobbes

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
July 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
1234567
891011121314
15161718192021
22232425262728
293031    
CalendarCalendar
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
The missing five hours.
The ammunition question
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_leftShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? BarShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_right 
Branchjr
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_leftShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? BarShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_right 
1879graves
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_leftShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? BarShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_right 
90th
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_leftShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? BarShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_right 
SRB1965
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_leftShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? BarShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_right 
John Young
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_leftShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? BarShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_right 
paulhellier
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_leftShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? BarShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_right 
Hobbes
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_leftShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? BarShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_right 
johnman
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_leftShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? BarShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_right 
ADMIN
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_leftShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? BarShould Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Bar_right 
New topics
» The Pictorial World - March 15th 1879
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyYesterday at 1:13 pm by ben2000

» The lost diary of Pvt James Owen
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyThu Jul 25, 2024 12:03 pm by miklew

» Last of the 24th at Isandhlwana
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyWed Jul 24, 2024 5:53 pm by miklew

» What was the uniform of field marshals/generals in the zulu war?
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptySun Jul 21, 2024 12:30 pm by darthvaix

» Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyFri Jul 19, 2024 1:29 pm by SRB1965

» Capt. D. Hayes 1/3rd Regt., NNC
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyWed Jul 17, 2024 10:52 pm by Julian Whybra

» The Wrecked Camp
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptySun Jul 14, 2024 8:51 am by 61MECH

» The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN

» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN

Similar topics
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying.
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address. Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.  If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.  We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes. There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site. The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum. The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
 

 Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ?

Go down 
5 posters
AuthorMessage
Guest
Guest




Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Empty
PostSubject: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ?   Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyTue Oct 04, 2011 4:27 pm

An interesting scenario has cropped up during my reading of the book A Guide To Military Criminal Law by Michael J. Davidson. On page 70, an incident is described which should cause a bit of discussion, I hope -

'In June 1994 a B-52 at Fairchild Air Force Base crashed, due to the unsafe flying of a pilot with a reputation for reckless and daredevil antics. The colonel commanding the group was court-martialed, and convicted, of dereliction of duty for allowing the pilot to fly after receiving information that he was reckless and for failing to inquire into the pilot's reckless reputation.'

Now, I'm not taking any sides here, and also understand this is a more modern case study. but it does beg the question, should Chelmsford have been court-martialed for dereliction of duty, going by the above example ? Namely, having Durnford not only command a column, but have him move into hostile territory in support of the invasion as an independent unit, knowing his reputation for being rash, reckless and daring. Not only he, but many knew what kind of man Durnford was, including several if not all his faults. Durnford himself could therefore be forgiven for being put into a situation like Isandhlwana, when higher command considered him able, as it was his duty to obey, not to question. So, was Chelmsford then guilty of not only selecting Durnford, but Pulliene, to be in roles beyond their personal capacity ? Any thoughts ?
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


Posts : 2593
Join date : 2009-04-24

Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ?   Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyTue Oct 04, 2011 5:23 pm

But it could be argued, with the rank of Colonel goes responsibilities along with a job description. The good Lord Chelmsford as far as I'm aware never promoted either of the two inquestion. So the failure to bring them up to standard required in the capacity of a colonel, would not be the fault of The Good Lord Chelmsford. It was the Military system that failed the Good Lord Chelmsford for placing them under his command.

That's why I believe the correct order issued to Durnford was to reinforce not take command. As you say The Good Lord Chelmsford knew his reputation.
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224


Posts : 2101
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 57
Location : North London

Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ?   Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyTue Oct 04, 2011 5:35 pm

Another blame game question!

In a cock-up as big as iSandlwana, one person alone simply can not be to blame, but several simultaneous cock-ups have to occur simultaneously, a comedy of errors so to speak.

Blame:
Chelmsford - he was ultimately i/c of the Central column and the whole invasion of Zululand, perhaps was too complacent, rash and reckless himself.
Pulleine - as the OC the camp, for not reorganising the camp defences to take into account that it was now defended by half a column, not a whole one. I am not talking about laagering here, he did not have any kind of plan whatsoever. His Actions On could have been as simple as, "if we get attacked by any Zulus, let's form a square around the ammo truck."
Durnford - he was the senior officer present at the camp when things started to kick off. He is to blame for NOT saying to Pulleine "get the bloody camp defences sorted, now, WTF have you been doing all night?" However, he was not an expert in infantry tactics and would probably have not known much about adequate camp defences or plans.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ?   Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyTue Oct 04, 2011 5:42 pm

Tasker, it is not yet another blame topic, there's been enough already. I'm talking about the comparison between the modern case study and the aftermath of Isandhlwana. It is not about blaming, but a question asking if there an official option open to the military at the time to forego a Court Of Inquiry and instead conduct an official Court Martial, allowing Chelmsford to get over his side of the story. Nothing to do with blame, but it is to do with clarity.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ?   Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyTue Oct 04, 2011 5:49 pm

If you follow this course, you will make it a blame topic by yourself, rather than keeping to the original question. Durnford and Pulliene are out of the equation. It is about Chelmsford's opportunity to get the facts as he would consider worthy of recording put forward in a Court Martial.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ?   Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyTue Oct 04, 2011 6:08 pm

I think Durnford has been through the mill enough, having himself been judged and damned by a Kangaroo Court, which is a disgrace in itself even when the victim of it is alive, but when they are absent from it due to being dead, then what must we make of that ?

Kangaroo Court - A kangaroo court or kangaroo trial is a colloquial term for a sham legal proceeding or court. The outcome of the trial by kangaroo court is essentially determined in advance, usually for the purpose of ensuring conviction, either by going through the motions of manipulated procedure or by allowing no defence at all.

A kangaroo court's proceedings deny, hunder or obstruct due process rights in the name of expediency. Typically, a kangaroo court will deliberately abuse one or more of the following rights of the accused :

right to hear full statement of the exact charges made against the accused.
right to have adequate time and resources to prepare a defence against the charges.
right to summon witnesses.
right of cross-examination.
right to introduce evidence which supports acquittal of the accused.
right not to incriminate oneself.
right not to be tried on secret evidence.
right to control one's own defence.
right to exclude evidence that is improperly obtained, irrelevant or inherently inadmissable. e.g. hearsay.
right to exclude judges or jurors on the grounds of partiality or conflict of interest.
right to have verbatim stenographic record of the trial proceedings created.
right of appeal.

Source - Wikipedia.

So, was Durnford denied any of these rights ?

The subject of this topic is investigating events through the Court Martial of Lord Chelmsford, not to blame, but have clean and decent trial where all facts are heard.
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


Posts : 2593
Join date : 2009-04-24

Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ?   Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyTue Oct 04, 2011 8:49 pm

Well it's a good job, the Zulus prevented Durnford from leaving,or he would have been given all those rights you mentioned in his own court Martial, for desertion.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ?   Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyTue Oct 04, 2011 9:07 pm

CTSG, the Zulus didn't prevent Durnford from leaving, as he stayed by choice, so the word desertion doesn't really belong in this topic. Sorry I forgot to respond to your earlier post, as I got sidetracked by the other member. Ranks are just ranks, but you'll find men of the same rank, no matter how high, don't necessarily have the same personalities or qualities that got them to that position. Some may excel in one area while others excel in other areas. Out of curiosity, I asked this already, but why do you have Chelmsford termed a scapegoat in your username ?
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14


Posts : 2008
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 27

Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ?   Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyTue Oct 04, 2011 9:11 pm

I agree with Colin j.

CTSG, Durnford decided to stay at Isandlwana, the Zulus did not trap him.

I remember reading an acccount from one of Durnfords african sergants begging him to ride away with them, when he didnt the man rode off. If the Sergant could escape then so could Durnford.
Back to top Go down
Eric




Posts : 116
Join date : 2011-06-17

Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ?   Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyWed Oct 05, 2011 8:06 am

Chelmsford deserved to be court martialed for many things.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ?   Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyWed Oct 05, 2011 8:12 am

As long as there are impassioned ( blinkered ) defenders of the individual there will be the Blame Game. Not one of the key participants in that era can walk away with any form of dignity.

Chelmsford should, as Senior Military Officer, been made to face an enquiry. Other than the parliamentary attempt.

To try and charge Durnford with desertion is quite frankly a product of a moribund mind. Desertion from where? To where?

If Durnford had lived its possible that his orders of 'Reinforce the camp' could have been brought up to show that he was derelict in responsibility in not doing so.

Pullein cant be charged with anything except being to inflexible.

Regards
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224


Posts : 2101
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 57
Location : North London

Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ?   Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyWed Oct 05, 2011 9:23 am

Colin's wikipedia definition of a kangaroo court, does by definition, mean that Durnford, Pulleine et al were and are being tried by kangaroo court, whenever their actions are discussed. Being dead, they were never able to defend themselves, their actions or decisions at the time.
Chelmsford at the time, blamed Durnford and was ridiculously successful, perhaps due to his very cosy relationship with the Queen, in deflecting any share of the blame away from himself.
I think he should have been court-martialled and every line of enquiry explored.
Today, a loss of life on that scale would precipitate all of the above for the man in overall charge, but as i am frequently reminded of on here, things were very different back in Victorian times.
The life of a soldier was much cheaper then. Yes, the public was horrified back then, but "horrified" back then would not have been quite the same thing as "horrified" today.
I think Chelmsford got off too lightly. I think he should of course been court martialled. But we can't apply today's standards to those times.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ?   Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ? EmptyWed Oct 05, 2011 3:24 pm

Eric, the charge would be Dereliction Of Duty, but any related issues would be listed as the Specifications of that charge, which could be quite a few.
Back to top Go down
 
Should Chelmsford Have Been Court-Martialed ?
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Captain Moriarty. Court Marshalled
» Court of Enquiry regarding the disastrous affair of Isandlwana
» A guide for the Zulu court interpreter.

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: