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 Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place.

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90th
Dave
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littlehand

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Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. Empty
PostSubject: Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyMon Dec 05, 2011 10:15 pm

Just to test the waters, there has been much debate on the various characters that took part in the battle of Isandlwana.
Durnford seems to be the best person to start with. Put yourself in his position what would you have done differently, that could have possibly save the day. Or at least make it that little bit harder for the Zulu's. I would suggest starting from his meeting with Chard on his way to Isandlwana.

Or could nothing had been done differently.
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Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyTue Dec 06, 2011 1:40 pm

LH, knowing the way things turned out at Isandhlwana, if meaning what we would have done in hindsight, I think Frere or Chelmsford himself might be better first choices. Idea
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyTue Dec 06, 2011 2:47 pm

I think Littlehand is starting with the one that got the Blame. Maybe along the lines of what could Durnford had done to rectiy the mistakes made by the other.
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Mr M. Cooper

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Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. Empty
PostSubject: put yourself in Col Durnford's place.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyTue Dec 06, 2011 5:33 pm

Hi all

I have read, and am still reading, various books on the AZW, and the way things appear to me is that Col Durnford had very little chance of correcting the mistakes that Chelmsford had failed to deal with before he left with half the column to look for the zulus.

He arrived at the camp with a total of just 526 men, and was surprised at the number of conflicting reports about the zulus, and at the lack of concern shown by Pulleine. He sent out scouts, and had lookouts posted, he tried to find out the whereabouts of these zulus by sending out two troops to try to find them, he then got a report that the zulus were retiring towards Chelmsford, he believed that they were trying to cut Chelmsford off, he went to see where the zulus were retiring to so that he could make an attempt to stop them from outflanking Chelmsford. He had ordered the rocket battery and it's NNC escort, to advance from the camp toward the right front, he had asked Pulleine to lend him two companies of the 24th, which Pulleine had refused, Col Durnford did not want them to accompany him, but wanted them to form a defensive line so that if he got into any trouble he could fall back behind them. The rocket battery seems to have been led astray by a scout from the Natal Carbineers, and not by any of Col Durnford's orders. The 'zulus retiring towards Chelmsford' was a zulu ploy to lure Durnford away from the camp, he was furious at the turn of events, knowing that he had been outwitted by the zulus, he could now only fall back to the camp, and on the way rescue what was left of the rocket battery after they had been deserted by their NNC escort. With having no companies of the 24th to fall back behind, he and his men had to try to make a staggered withdrawal, one troop firing while the other passed through it, maybe if the two companies had been available to Col Durnford, they could have made a steady withdrawal back to the camp and fought alongside the rest of the men, but that is something that we will never know.

Col Durnford did not have enough time to arrange defences for the camp, these should have already been done by Chelmsford, but he failed, even Pulleine could have organised some sort of defences when he first got reports of zulus in the area, he had hours to arrange something long before Col Durnford arrived, but he failed.

It is no good when some folk say that 'Chelmsford would have expected Durnford to do this when he arrived at Isandlwana', if that is what Chelmsford wanted him to do, then he should have made that clear in his orders, or at least left orders for Durnford with Pulleine to be given to Durnford on his arrival at the camp, but he failed.

In my opinion, blaming Col Durnford for this mess is totally wrong, he was made scapegoat by Chelmsford, Crealock and others, to save Chelmsford's skin. Also in my opinion, Col Durnford should be highly honoured for his attempt at trying to find out where the zulus were, and for also attempting to stop the zulus which he thought were trying to cut off Chelmsford, he had very little time and very few men, but he had at least the nouse to do something about finding out about the zulus, which is more than Pulleine thought of doing.

In my book Col Durnford is a hero not a villian, the villains got away with it, the hero paid with his life, as did many other heroes that sad day.

Regards

Martin.


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tasker224

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Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyTue Dec 06, 2011 9:02 pm

LH, I know what I would have done differently if I had been the senior officer arriving at iSandlwana, both with hindsight and without.

With, I would abandon the camp immediately on arrival and make a shoot and scoot dash for Mangeni to link up with C'ford.
Without, I would have kicked Pulleine's arrse for sure, but I still absolutely do not believe this would have resulted in a different outcome. Durnford's arrival in the morning was already way too late to have changed anything very much.
It was to be the Zulus' day.
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Dave

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Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyTue Dec 06, 2011 11:54 pm

On receiving the information from Chard regarding his sightings of large numbers of Zulu's I would have sent a message to Chelmsford to bring it to his attention.

I would have sent a rider ahead to inform Pulliene of my pending arrival and to start assembling ammuniitition stations ensuring ammunition was freely available if the need arose.

I would have used my senior authority in rank to take commard of the camp fully.

I would not have sent men out to look for the Zulu's. ( Hopefully this would have delayed the Zulu advance, as Raw and co would not have found them.

All of the men would have been brought back into the camp area, forming
firing formations to the front, left and right with the Isandlwana hill behind them as a natural defence.

Whatever wagons were there would have been used to form part of the firing line defences.

I would have ordered the quarter masters to issue ammunition to anyone who was fighting on the side of the British.

Men would posted on top of Isandlwana hill giving a clear line of sight of all directions in the event of a Zulu Attack.

Then I would have had Breakfast with Col: Pulliene.

Now I'm ready to be shot down by you guys and dolls Shocked


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90th

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Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. Empty
PostSubject: put yourself in Col. Durnford's place .   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyWed Dec 07, 2011 3:30 am

Hi Dave .
:lol!: .............. '' Shoot Straight You Bastards '' I pinched the line from Breaker Morant just in case some didnt
know it !. Good Luck Dave .
cheers 90th. Idea
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Frank Allewell

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Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyWed Dec 07, 2011 6:29 am

Tasker
Fully agree.
AS senior officer I would have ordered Pullein to bend over then kicked his A***E.
Next order all the troops to bend over and kiss theirs goodbye.

The battle was over before breakfast, they just didnt know it.

Regards
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyWed Dec 07, 2011 10:25 am

Quote :
"Shoot Straight You Bastards"

Also used by in the film Zulu Dawn. Just after the young lad was shot while pegging out the distance markers. Idea
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90th

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Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. Empty
PostSubject: Put yourself in Durnford's position.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyWed Dec 07, 2011 10:37 am

Hi Ctsg .
Yes , Pvt Storey says it , '' come all this way to get shot by a bullet from Birmingham '' or words to that effect .
cheers 90th. Idea
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tasker224

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Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyWed Dec 07, 2011 6:26 pm

Dave
all pretty prudent actions you'd have taken, but i can't help thinking that your actions are all based on your knowledge and hindsight!
as Springbok says, the battle was over before breakfast they just didn't know it yet.
rather sadly, realistically, i think i would have been as complacent as every other officer who was there that day. the only way you, me, or anyone else would make even a slight difference would be if we could zoom back 133 years knowing then, what we know now!
tasker
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24th

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Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyWed Dec 07, 2011 7:45 pm

But cleaver Dave. Has said." Raw and co werent sent out. Thus the Zulus would not have been stumbled upon. Thus giving Durnford more time to do what Dave as stated. Rolling Eyes
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Drummer Boy 14

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Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyWed Dec 07, 2011 7:53 pm

Havind read Zulu Victory and Isandlwana i think the Zulus where well on there way to attacking the camp anyway.

+ The Carbineers found the army first and they where already out there on picket duty Idea


It was to late for Durnford to the mistakes of Chelsmford and Pulliene.




Cheers
DB14
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littlehand

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Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyWed Dec 07, 2011 9:23 pm

If I had been in Durnford's position. I would have gone up to Chelmsford put a gun to his head and made him return to Isandlwana. Telling him you made the mess you clean it up. Wouldn't have bother taking Crealock back, would have just shot him when he stood. Now we can talk about Durnford's court marshall.
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Mr M. Cooper

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Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. Empty
PostSubject: put yourself in Col Durnford's place.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyThu Dec 08, 2011 12:30 am

Hi Dave

Good post, but these are mostly with hindsight, lets take them point by point.

Points 1 and 2, Durnford would have expected these to have already been done, and I think that Pulleine did send a message around 9.30am.

point 3, O.K. but then he might have been Court Martialled for taking command without orders or authority from Chelmsford.

point 4, If he hadn't looked for the zulus, or taken action when they had been reported as 'retiring' in Chelmsfords direction, and they had have cut Chelmsford off, we could well be discussing a double massacre, he had to act when he heard that they were heading in the direction of Chelmsford, he did not know that it was a zulu ploy to get him out of the camp.

points 5, 6 and 7, Agree

point 8, Durnford did this

point 9, Rather than take breakfast with Pulleine, he should have taken him behind the tent and booted his backside.

Regards

Martin.


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Mr M. Cooper

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Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. Empty
PostSubject: put yourself in Col Durnford's place.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyThu Dec 08, 2011 12:33 am

Nice one LH, at least creepy Crealock wouldn't have been able to rig anything would he.

Regards

Martin.
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Al Amos

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Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyThu Dec 08, 2011 1:26 am

I would have showed up for sick call, if I were Col. Durnsford.
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Frank Allewell

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Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyThu Dec 08, 2011 6:26 am

Littlehand

Remind me never to upset you. Suspect

:lol!:
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Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place.   Put yourself in Col: Durnford's place. EmptyThu Dec 08, 2011 10:50 am

LH, now that really is taking charge ! Shocked A Durnford court-martial for these actions would definitely have been front page news !
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