The traitor John Dunn

It's very simple Littlehand ...

It is among the Zulus to trade and get rich and this time, no problems ...

But he sells firearms obsolete to the Zulu, so this is a scammer ...

At the time of his arrival, there is not much threat of war between the whites and the Zulus, but even he could have foreseen that the Zulus could be used these firearms against the white one day .. .

It reminds me of the bastards who sold weapons to Comanche ! And the morons who supplied weapons to the Lakota when they were in their reserves (and that the Lakota and Cheyenne used to kill the poor wretches of the U.S. Army ...)

When Zululand is attacked, he joined the British and falls between the paws of LC ...

It was not to fight the British, but it was not to join them, either ...

It is suspected that in the latter case, that LC solicit his services ...

He should have stayed with Cetewayo and does not participate in the war, just wait until it happens ...

It reminds me of those bastards who lived with the Lakota and Cheyenne and then, if there was a war, leaving to serve as scouts for the U.S. Army.

I do not think the LC really threatened, I think there was a deal between them, because by chance, it is a wren in Zululand after the war ...

If he did not want to stay with Cetewayo during the war (while not participating in combat) he did not have to join the British and even less to fight the Zulus.

You can not fight aliens among which we lived happy, nor his countrymen, that guy over there is not really a renegade (but almost), because it was too calculating for that, but it is an opportunistic ...

He knew very well that the Zulus were finally defeated and that is why in December 1878, he joined the British!

Like this, and not enough, it mobilizes troops to fight Cetewayo!

I think there was a super deal between him and LC ...

The icing on the cake is that it becomes a "Zulu" Wren particularly indecent relative to Cetewayo and to adopt the manners and customs of the Zulus, particularly indecent, relative to its white wife...

This must be what he was promised in case of collaboration ...

This guy here has simply indulge in all its grandiosity and fantasies ... Disgusting ...

PTR

There is always a choice! Dunn just didn't want to loose what he had, that was more important to him than a friendship.

However saying that didn't Dunn witness the killing of women and children, in one of Chetewayos campaigns.

There is always a choice! Dunn just did not want to loose what he HAD, that 'was more significant to him than a friendship.

Well not for me, if I lived for years among the British, after years, I have alot of British friends, and I never could not lift a finger on a British, although I do not know ...

HOWEVER saying Dunn That Did not witness the killing of women and children, in one of Chetewayos campaigns.

This does not concern! White living among this or that plains Indian tribe, saw and told the atrocities were able their indian friends on women and children of another tribe, and although they are s' not taking care of it ...

At the time there was less hypocrisy that today with the wars, the inhuman behavior of Indian or Zulu was something natural for them, just like the Romans in ancient times, it is a question of civilization, customs ect .. not to judge because of this and our current criteria ect ...For cons, the behavior of whites, even at this time, is unforgivable, including the the behavior of JD.

John Dunn give them nothing! But took from them everything!

Hi Pascal .
There was ' NO DEAL' between LC & Dunn , if you read my post slowly , you'll see that I said LC told Dunn if he didnt join him things '' WOULD GO BADLY FOR HIM '' , he means Dunn , will have many problems , he'll basically LOSE everything . Dunn , if he wanted to keep what he had built up over the years , didnt have much of a choice he had to take the british side . Not shouting with the Capitals just emphasisng .
La 90th.  

Yes Marsupial ,but before the attack of the Zululand, he joined the Natal (why? There had to go elsewhere) and falls betweens the paws of LC ... (He suspected although this may happen and what LC ask him ...)

In fact, it has increased its business before friendship, I would have been incapable of it ...

What I blame him, and his nobility of soul, that is exactly that ...

In fact it was a common trader, this is disgusting ...This guy has never liked the Zulu, I could never live in the middle of a foreign people, if I do not like ...

Cetewato should have him killed before or after the war ...

Pascal
You draw a lot of conclusions based on passion not reality.
Have you read the correspondence from Cetshwayo ?
Read his letter to Sir Henry Robinson on the 29th March 1881 from Oude Molin.
Also his evidence before the Cape Commision items 206 -223.
Maybe it will change your mind.

Cheers

What after the Zulu War, Cetewayo does not consider JD or then Cetewayo never felt JD and just needed him ...

So they are put back to back, all this was only a vile business between them ?

As for me, I'm so sentimental and emotive, so obviously, if I had been among the Zulus, it' by esteem for them, not to trade.

Therefore, the conduct of JD disgusts me ...

Me at other times, depending on the time and place, I will easily become a renegade, just by passion ect ...

We chose his friends, not his family ...

In 1886 he and DFC Moodie published his memoirs, “John Dunn, Cetywayo and the three Generals.” Dunn wrote:

‘Such was the rise and fall of Cetshwayo, and the end of an unjust war – not to Cetshwayo, but to the Zulu nation. ‘It was a fine race, and if it had only been properly handled and treated as an independent power, it would have been a staunch ally of England.’ ‘I say the war was unjust because I think there was no valid reason for it, although, as long as the Natal Government held their dictatorial tone, it would have come sooner or later. ‘The so-called settlement of Zululand was the maddest piece of policy ever heard of, as the Zulu people, after their defeat, naturally looked upon themselves as subjects of the Government, and then they would wittingly have allowed themselves to be moulded into any shape. ‘The country ought to have been annexed and brought under British rule without sending Cetshwayo away.’

As the Zulu people, after their defeat, naturally looked upon themselves as subjects of the Government ???

But why all these wars from 1883 to 1888?

No, Zulu royalists have never swallowed their defeat of1879 !

" Catherine Pierce a ' coloured ' was Dunn's FIRST wife. her
Father was Dick Pierce an Englishman who married a Cape
Malay woman.Catherine was sixteen when she married Dunn
in 1853.she left with him to Zululand in 1857.

Dominic Dunn speaking in 1954 ( the year i was born ) Say's

I want to say this now, that i have no fault to find with my
Father and Mother for bringing me into this world of colour
discrimination and segregation and where i was grilled and
drilled as if i was an intruder in my own country. i excuse
and forgive my parents for i also am the means of bringing
other men and women into the world. and while the thought
is with me i want to say that it is my earnest desire that
none of my children, in the face of God, will ever be led to a
deceitful belief that they are inferior to any other creatures
in this world. God has created all and it has pleased him to
have different colours in people. the blood that flows in my
veins from an englishman and an honest Zulu woman is no
disgrace to me, nor should it be a disgace to my children...

John Dunn Died on the 5th of August 1895.r.i.p.
Sauce..Gon.

Me..what the world needs now..is love sweet love. and
a bit of tolerance Mr MAHE.. regards Les.

John Dunn give them nothing! But took from them everything! Well said by Dave!

What the world needs now is love sweet love. and a bit of tolerance, so with what is tolerable

Zulu praise poem praises John Dunn as follows:

"The hawk with wings that swoops but does not eat; the distributor of people like cattle; the back that carries the iGqoza; our white one that drives the Qwayinduku cattle; the back that pushed the uSuthu and the Mandlakazi; our chief whose ears shine in the sun; he who writes with his finger nails; the reed buck that jumped over the heads of men at Ndondakusuka.’ Dunn’s enemies might differ, but some old Zulus remember John Dunn as: “THE GREAT WHITE CHIEF OF ZULULAND.”

but some old Zulus remember John Dunn as: "THE GREAT WHITE CHIEF OF ZULULAND.". I'd be curious to know what the opinion of the Zulu royalists on JD , between 1883 and 1888 ... 

I did not know that the Zulus were writing poems, I thought they were not writing LOL LOL LOL

Could all your nonsense be because
you are french:j: looking back through
your old posts your english grammer
is good\bad\worse..depending on the
topic.no offense intended. i'm just
curious.

Do you think the P.I. had any business
being where he was. regards Les.

This will answer many of your questions Pascal. Click Here.

This is a preview, you will have to register on that site to download the whole artical!

littlehand, thank you.no more to be said.
accurate, concise,what a truly extraordinary
man considering where he started to where
he ended up.great post.i consider that to be
definitive.. and would make anybody keen to
read his story, put him in the context of his
times, and then make any assumption.
regards Les

Agree although it's not the whole artical, what's there is enough said, as you say!  

The fortunes of war!!! 

xhosa2000 I do not know if I have grammar problems (up to now, I'm doing quite well), but you do not read and write in French, 1% of what I read or write in English, but finally go because as I've said, your opinion I walk inside.

Thank you Pascal. and i hope iv'e passed
the audition.your assumption i dont do
french is correct.notwithstanding..i walk
around you in concentric circles.regards
Les.

For we laugh, give me lessons in English grammar by pm LOL LOL LOL

Perhaps you should take note. Completing the whole word would help?

I do what I can with the English on a historical subject that is not easy, poor Zulu, I hope that nobody forced them to speak English immediately after the destruction of Zululand ...  

Pascal. i believe you play devils advocate. for
the record i think the AZW was a nasty brutal
attack on an independent sovereign nation
brought about by a maverick conniving zealot
using the odious tool of confederation.
i place this statement for the record.it is just
my personal opinion.
regards Les.

I'm not the devils advocate,but for the record ,yes i think the AZW was a nasty brutal attack on an independent sovereign nation (the zululand) brought about by a maverick conniving zealot (Frere) using the odious tool of confederation.(South Africa)
i place this statement for the record and it is just also my personal opinion  

Pascal MAHE wrote:

brought about by a maverick conniving zealot (Frere) using the odious tool of confederation.(South Africa)  

Oy leave South Africa out of it ! This was a British War brought on by the fear of the Russians.

Really, the confederation desired by Frere is not the ancestor of the white South Africa   

No it isnt.
British imperialistic agression and the desire to stop Russia expanding a foothold in Africa drove Frere and Shepstone. And yet again into the Orange River Sov. and the indepennt Transvaal.
Your best reading on this is through Sir George Cory vols 5 and 6, The Rise of South Africa.

PS
Bugger all to do with 'White' South Africa.

So in summary, it was necessary to destroy the Zululand to prevent the Russian conquest of Afghanistan    

Dissingenuous !

Pascal,

No, it had nothing to do with Afghanistan the British were fearful of Russian Imperial expansion throughout the World. Don't forget that the Crimea War was in the living memory of many still in 1879.

The fact the Confederate raider, the C.S.S. Alabama made to it Cape Town woke the British authorities up, if "Johnny Reb" could do it then so could "The Russian Bear."

As a consequence coastal defences were improved from Cape Town through to the naval base at Simonstown.

Although I would count as one of my favourite characters Frere wasn't a maverick or zealot either, far from it read his biographies before you tar him as such. He should have already been retired when he accepted the position of the Governor of the Cape Colony and High Commissioner for southern Africa. He would have quite happily remained in Britain performing his duties as the President of the Royal Geographical Society.

If you want to point the finger at someone for the Confederation Policy point it at Henry Herbert, 4th Earl of Carnavon, it was his policy which Frere was trying implement. The Cape Government under John Molteno showed their displeasure with the policy and suggested rather than a confederation, a union of the diverse southern African states and kingdoms. Had it not been for the events of September 1877 on the border of the Cape Colony, events might well had taken a very different course.

'Jimu

Mate Sorry but I do not know the translation of the word Dissingenuous! , But it shall not be sad, I guess  

Pascal
So possible that whole period of history could boil down to a wedding between Mgenga a Mfengu Chief and a Gcaleka bride. A Gcaleka got into a fight with a Mgenga and it escalated from there into a battle between the Police and the Gcaleka at Gwadana. From there all out war, all in 1877/78.
Simplistic I know but those are the basics, in between were battles like Centane and 4000 Xhosa being killed.

Or possibly it could have been the proclamation of 11 oclock on the morning of 12th April 1877?

Cheers

Jimmy

No, it had nothing to do with Afghanistan the British were fearful of Russian Imperial expansion throughout the World. Don't forget that the Crimea War was in the living memory of many still in 1879.

Oh , I thought, they are interested only in Afghanistan  

The fact the Confederate raider, the C.S.S. Alabama made to it Cape Town woke the British authorities up, if "Johnny Reb" could do it then so could "The Russian Bear."

If the Russians wanted a foothold in Africa, want one in a European colony, was not malignant.  

As a consequence coastal defences were improved from Cape Town through to the naval base at Simonstown.

He was stupid enough to believe that the Russians would land at Cap?? The Russians have poisoned the British ... 

Although I would count as one of my favourite characters Frere wasn't a maverick or zealot either, far from it read his biographies before you tar him as such. He should have already been retired when he accepted the position of the Governor of the Cape Colony and High Commissioner for southern Africa. He would have quite happily remained in Britain performing his duties as the President of the Royal Geographical Society.

If you want to point the finger at someone for the Confederation Policy point it at Henry Herbert, 4th Earl of Carnavon, it was his policy which Frere was trying implement.

He did not have to go to South Africa, especially to carry out this policy there, like a vulgar performer, it can be was not.
 
The Cape Government under John Molteno showed their displeasure with the policy and suggested rather than a confederation, a union of the diverse southern African states and kingdoms.

Confederation or union of the diverse southern African states and kingdoms.his is the same for the poor Zulu.And any ways, confederations Still evolving into federations 

Had it not been for the events of September 1877 on the border of the Cape Colony, events might well had taken a very different course.

And what was the result?

Springbok9,

I excluded Frere from the events in Pretoria in 1877, he had only been in South Africa for a matter of days, and Shepstone's plans were already afoot by then.

'Jimu

Mate

I think all these colonial wars after having annexed the Cape Colony, were intended by simple mind of colonial conquests to serve imperialism and capitalism so ...

Even the Boers have suffered British imperialism and capitalism ...

There has never been any threats of an indigenous people on the Cape Colony, except the threats of the Xhosa , which was legitimate ...

Pascal,

You are wrong to believe that "The Great Game" was only played out on the borders of India.  The crisis of Russo-Turkish War of 1877-8 took the British Government, supported by Austria and Germany, to the brink of war with Russia.  The French were sitting that one out by-the-way, too busy with expanding their Republican ideals in Tonkin-China, or Indo-China as it is otherwise referred.

Even though the Russian Empire extended from the Baltic to Pacific thoughts of further expansion were seriously considered.  It was feared that the trade routes from the British eastern colonies were under threat.

The perceived threat wasn't helped by the sighting of Russian warships off the Cape of Good Hope, hence the need for coastal defences.  It would have been the first time that one European power had seized the Cape from another, would it?

However, all of this is somewhat off the topic of John Dunn.

'Jimu

Yes Jimmy I also recall that after the Crimea, the British army intervened in Iran ...

If all of this is Somewhat off the topic of John Dunn's Because it is an elastic forum.

Had it not been for the events of September 1877 on the border of the Cape Colony, events might well had taken a very different course.

And what was the result?

kwajimu, i stand by what i wrote every letter every full stop and comma.
Frere was a snake along side shepstone. the only ones to emerge with
any credit..for me. is Bulwer and Colenso. think about what you are say-
ing.british imperialism is (i use present tense because we are still at it )
not an abstract concept and couple that with colonialism and you pretty
soon get a picture of what we british were really about.

springbok you say keep the white south africans out of it.sorry mate no
can do.The Boers waited till we dealt with the Zulu question and then
proceeded with the first war of Independence which ended with great loss
of life ( on the british side ) and ended with that shameful capitulation at
O'neals cottage. therefor sowing the seeds of the 2nd war of independence.

The 2nd Boer war saw us brits sink to an a time low led by the likes of Mill-
ner chamberlain, kitchener, haigh,french,all recognized butchers.. and what
was all that blood shed for..scorched earth policy concentration camps, all
blood shed in that corner of the world was for one thing only..Money...
Gold and Diamonds..a gold deposit the size of jo burg..these are all my own
words and i stand by every one of them..i dont cut and paste huge chunks
out of books as i know some people do.present company excepted..read the
history sort the myth from the facts.and i repeat it was all for money..
regards Les

Les,

The point I was trying to put across to Pascal, was Frere was neither a maverick or a zealot, his choice of words.  

If you mention Bulwer and Colenso, it would be wrong not to mention Molteno and Merriman in the breath, who tried and failed to convince Frere not to react to events on the Cape border in 1877.

Much more should rightly laid at the door of Shepstone, the man who broke the Sand River Convention of 1852 on 12th April 1877, yet how many place the blame for events that followed on him?

Without Shepstone's actions; British forces would not have become in embroiled with a war against the BaPedi.  The British would not have become entangled in the border dispute between the Transvaal and the Zulu and we know where that led.

I make no excuses for British imperialism or its consequences which I fully agree with you were - and still are - greed driven.


'Jimu

Thanks kwajimu.its just not good enough
to trot out the old treaties,events,battles,
personalities, we are beyond that..we all
have our understanding of the events of
the last half of the nineteenth century of
the events which culminated in the Union
of 1910.

However i have for some years now been
considering the plight of the Zulu Nation
the reverberations of those evil selfcentred,
self serving polices are still evident to day.

I am talking about the big picture. now, i
love my country with a passion but i am in
no way blind to our history. and i repeat..
all that blood was for money.
its a privilege to be able to further my ed-
ucation by participating on this forum. a pm
has just gleefully informed me that i will be
hated on this forum for expressing my opinion.
really..bring it on.Pascoll.yeah saw what you
did.i dont even know the guy. but i will fight
for his right to his own opinion.regards Les.

Back on topic!

How does the word traitor come into it  

Thank you Admin\ray63..at your service.
regards Les.

I used to get those kind of PMs. Paste and copy the message along with who sent it, in the off topic section. I don't get PMs now.

Ray

He would not fight in this war:Salute: 

Xhosa
Opinions are what this forum is all about, ignore the fools that say otherwise.

Your comment about not being able to keep White South Africans out. Doesnt wash. We need to bear in mind that there were no White South Africans at that time, just White Cape Colonists and White Natal Colonists.
The Transvaal untill 77 was an independent republic that was unilaterally taken over by Shepstone in probably the most high handed piece of imperialism ever. Surely the Burgers of the ZAR had every right to get rid of the opressive British ( if it happened today they would be called freedom fighters ) 
The Boer war was a perfectly legitimate war fought against a criminal aggresor. An Aggresor that fought that war with a level of barbarism unheard of from a so called civilised nation, Burned earth, Concentration camps, torture, starvation of non coms. I could go on for a long time. Whatever you do never ever go into the Vrou Museum in Bloemfontein, the exhibits there will have you in tears, the malnutrition, institutionalised, the powdered glass fed to the wives and families of the Boer, read the stats of the numbers that died. 
If you feel the need to criminalise the Boer uprising against the opressive regime then paraphrase that sentence and substitute the ANC and the Nationalistic Government, can you criminalise that? 
My point being that the comments of 'White South Africans' originally posted by Pascal should rather read White British Subjects.

Cheers Mate

 

Mate

There are two kinds of fish, dead fish that go in the direction of the flow and live fish that go against the flow... 

Pascal
The only responce to that is:
"Man who make love on the side of a hill is not on the level."
And that makes as much sense !