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 Grape-shot at close range.

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat
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24th

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Grape-shot at close range. Empty
PostSubject: Grape-shot at close range.   Grape-shot at close range. EmptySun Jun 21, 2009 12:59 am

Just reading a magazine about the Crimea War. Sevastopol.. Where they talk about the use of Grapeshot and the carnage it caused when hitting the ranks of soldiers, One-soldier states “The Sergeant next to me was atomizer”

At close range Grapeshot had a devastating effect, killing and wounding hundreds.

Was Grapeshot used at Isandhlwana or Ulundi? The Zulu were especially at Isandlwana at very close range. Surly if ithey had used Grapeshot the Zulu Ranks would have been torn to pieces in no time.
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90th

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PostSubject: GRAPESHOT   Grape-shot at close range. EmptySun Jun 21, 2009 7:06 am

hi 24th.

good point, i will look into it, maybe s.d may have an answer ?

cheers 90th.
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Saul David 1879




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PostSubject: Re: Grape-shot at close range.   Grape-shot at close range. EmptySun Jun 21, 2009 11:24 am

Grapeshot I believe was not used during the Zulu war. Canister shot (or case-shot) was It was similar to grapeshot in which the canister round's effect is similar to that of a giant shotgun shell.

Extract from THE BATTLE OF KHAMBULA
29th March 1879
“On Buller’s command, fired a volley into their ranks and were then ordered to remount and ride back into the laager. However the NNH remained to skirmish the flanks of the iNgobamakhosi. The effect of the volley was spontaneous. The iNgobamakhosi rose as one, bellowed uSuthu and charged forward. As the mounted men retreated, the Artillery had opened fire with case shot into the packed masses of the iNgobamakhosi. The effect was devastating. Dead and wounded warriors lay spread like a carpet for half a mile or so to the north of the laager and redoubt.”

And this from the Battle Of ulundi

"The mounted troops by the stream opened fire from the saddle in an attempt to trigger a premature charge before wheeling back to gallop through the gaps made in the infantry lines for them. As the cavalry cleared their front at about 9 a.m., the four ranks of the infantry with front two kneeling, opened fire at 2,000 yards into the advancing Zulu ranks. The pace of the advance quickened and the range closed between the British lines and the Zulus. The British were ready and the Zulu troops faced concentrated fire. Zulu regiments had to charge forward directly into massed rifle fire, non-stop fire from the Gatling guns and the artillery firing canister shot at point-blank range."


S.D
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90th

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PostSubject: grape-shot   Grape-shot at close range. EmptySun Jun 21, 2009 1:30 pm

this from THE CURLING LETTERS OF THE ZULU WAR , " there was awful slaughter "

isandlwana.


" very soon bullets began to whistle about our heads and the men began to fall . the zulus still continued to advance and we began to fire CASE , but the order was given to retire after firing a round or two". It was estimated that the guns fired 25 rounds all up. as smith had fired rounds before Curling.


cheers 90th.
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Grape-shot at close range.   Grape-shot at close range. EmptySun Jun 21, 2009 2:21 pm

The stories are similar


From an Interview with Mehlokazulu Kasihayo (The Battle Of Isandlwana)


Q: You haven't said anything about the cannons ?

A: There was cannon firing at the place were the opening was; it was left in the field.

Q: when did you see the cannon for the first time ?

A: When all the soldiers left the camp and came to attack us headlong. One was dead next to the mules, there was a rocket and another one pulled by horses. They open fire as we came over the samll hill overlooking the camp, before we were in the camp.

Q; Didn't the Carabineers in the donga help ?.

A: Yes the carabineeers came to help and they fired in the same direction at the Zulu army near the donga.

Q: How many cannon shots were fired.?

A: The cannons fired four missle at the iNgobamakhosi and then they turned to fire at the uMbonambi. I don't know how many shots they fired, they fired very quickly, not at one, but at all three regiments. they must have fired about 10-20 times. They started firing when we were a long way off and hadn't yet reached the camp, that is willow bridge to the court house and we had to advance all that distance to the camp.

Q: Did the cannon do a lot of damage.?

A: The cannons only killed four men in our regiment: the shots went over us. When we saw the smoke of the cannon in its mouth,somebody shouted Umoya (Air) and we threw ourselves to the ground and the missile went over us, hitting behind,then after it had passed we got up againg and continued advancing.

I don't think they were firing case-shot based on SD post.
Quote :
The effect was devastating. Dead and wounded warriors lay spread like a carpet for half a mile
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90th

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PostSubject: case shot query   Grape-shot at close range. EmptySun Jun 21, 2009 3:11 pm

hi oh2,
sd is CORRECT there WASNT any GRAPE SHOT used in the zulu war.

in I.KNIGHTS , COMPANION TO THE ZULU WAR, the only artillery shells used were SHRAPNEL ( HIGH EXPLOSIVE ) or CASE SHOT. similar to grape shot. CASE SHOT is lead balls in a container which was designed to disintergrate on firing , so that the contents sprayed out the barrel like a giant shotgun, ,it had limited useful range but was highly ef
fective against personnel. according to interpreter JAMES BRICKHILL ( ISANDLWANA SURVIVOR).

" the atillery threw about 25 shots from different parts of the field during the battle. four of these were effective , each tearing up what appeared to be an acre of ground in the enemies masses., one gun however, always appeared to shoot high , whilst one shot burst halfway ,nearly over the head of our foot native cotingent.

cheers 90th.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Grape-shot at close range.   Grape-shot at close range. EmptySun Jun 21, 2009 7:27 pm

Old H. 90th. Do you think if Grape shot had be present at Isandlwana the outcome would have been different,
Quote :
the effect was devastating. Dead and wounded warriors lay spread like a carpet for half a mile
its seems we are talking serious firepower. But if anyone’s knows could they tell me why there was no Grape/ Case shot at Isandlwana.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Grape-shot at close range.   Grape-shot at close range. EmptySun Jun 21, 2009 7:41 pm

Just out of interest..


Caseshot is a projectile used in ordnance for fighting at close quarters. It consists of a thin metal case containing a large number of bullets or other small projectiles, such as musketballs, stones, or old pieces of iron is a kind of anti-personnel ammunition

Grapeshot is a type of Anti-personnel weapon ammunition used in cannons. Instead of solid shot, a mass of loosely packed metal slugs is loaded into a canvas bag....
in which the canister round's effect is similar to that of a giant shotgun shell

When fired, the canister disintegrates and its shards and projectiles spread out in a conical formation, causing a wide swath of destruction. It was particularly effective during the Napoleonic Wars.

Not a lot of people know that ?
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Grape-shot at close range.   Grape-shot at close range. EmptySun Jun 21, 2009 8:29 pm

Grape shot is a scientific phrase in artillery. If you place six balls inside a cannon, the diameter of those balls is grape shot for that cannon. Grape for a 12 pounder is smaller than grape for a 24 pounder. Grapeshot was classically stacked three rows deep 18 balls with plates between. The whole thing was coupled together with a rod up the center. Grape was used against infantry past the range of canister. Canister uses balls about 3/4 inch in diameter and was used under 300 yards. Grapeshot fell out of use with breech loading artillery. There is no modern comparable of Grapeshot. Probably last used at Waterloo 1814.
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PostSubject: Re: Grape-shot at close range.   Grape-shot at close range. EmptySun Jun 21, 2009 9:11 pm

I thought you might like this. It’s the same principle as grapeshot but modern day weaponry. Quite fascinating (Slow Motion so you can see the spreading effect.)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Let me know what you think. This would cause serious damage.
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sas1

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PostSubject: Re: Grape-shot at close range.   Grape-shot at close range. EmptySun Jun 21, 2009 9:34 pm

Great Phtotgraphy. Would have been a different story with these at Isandlwana.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Grape-shot at close range.   Grape-shot at close range. EmptySun Jun 21, 2009 9:39 pm

Do you not think that the second shot the one from the tank, look a lot like a swam of bee’s
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Grape-shot at close range.   Grape-shot at close range. EmptySun Jun 21, 2009 10:30 pm

Its funny you should mention Bees. I came across this the other day.

Beehive is an anti-personnel round fired from an artillery gun, packed full of metal flechettes, which are ejected from the shell in front of the target by the action of a mechanical time fuse. It is so called because of the 'buzzing' sound the darts make when flying through the air and in the manner of numerous bees around an actual beehive. It is effective when used with direct fire against of enemy troops.

From: wikipaeidia
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90th

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PostSubject: grapeshot   Grape-shot at close range. EmptyMon Jun 22, 2009 2:09 am

hi 24th.

i dont think the outcome would have been any different, as there wasnt enough artillery pieces to make a difference,
but there would have been a lot more zulu dead.

hi pete,
interesting viewing, i wouldnt want to be standing in front ot those shells !!!!.

i have often wondered if the troops at isandlwana had the sercice of six 50 cal browning machine guns, would the outcome have been different .

just a thought.
cheers 90th
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Saul David 1879




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PostSubject: Re: Grape-shot at close range.   Grape-shot at close range. EmptyMon Jun 22, 2009 9:40 pm

Pete. Absolute brilliant photography. Thanks for link.

S.D
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Grape-shot at close range.   Grape-shot at close range. EmptyMon Jun 22, 2009 10:27 pm

That shot from the Tank seemed to go on forever, was it showing the actual distance that shell covered or was it trick photography.
I’m not to sure 90th if it wouldn’t have made a difference, a couple of them at Isandlwana certainly would have taken a lot down. Maybe to appoint where they would have given up.
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90th

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PostSubject: grape-shot   Grape-shot at close range. EmptyTue Jun 23, 2009 8:17 am

hi oh2,
you may be right, they may have given up, thats the beauty of these sites , we all have a thought we would like to put across . And see what others think of the same point.
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Grape-shot at close range.   Grape-shot at close range. EmptyTue Jun 23, 2009 7:26 pm

I don't think i would have been running towards them.
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PostSubject: Re: Grape-shot at close range.   Grape-shot at close range. EmptySat Jan 13, 2024 10:54 am

Reviveing another old topic. I've been looking into the effectivenes of artillery during the AZW and came across this website, which gives detailed specifications for all types of canons used, including ammunition. It does not mention grape shot. It does not mention canister. However it mentions case shot, which might mean canister. If we compare these to shotgun ammunition, grape shot would be something like buck shot (few big projectiles) und canister would be something like bird shot (many small projectiles).

It mentions:

Segment Shell: Projectile that bursts at a set distance.
Common Shell: Projectile that bursts at a set distance.
Segment and common shell differ in their construction, but not in the way they function.

Shrapnel: Explosive projectile filled with balls. Necesary to calculate distance to target. Longer range than canister.
Case: Apparently a confusing term that is used to describe different types of anti personal artillery ammunition with multiple projectiles - grape, canister, shrapnel. As grape shot was not in use anymore at that time and shrapnel is mentioned separately, here it may refer to canister???

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Last edited by Schlaumeier on Mon Jan 15, 2024 9:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Grape-shot at close range. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Grape-shot at close range.   Grape-shot at close range. EmptyMon Jan 15, 2024 7:42 am

Sorry didn't see your PM til last night, I've sort of replied to it......

Simon
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