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Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyTue Feb 28, 2012 8:22 pm

I've read that Lt Anstey's body was found 2 days after the fight by his brother and eventualy brought back to Englnad.

What was his brother doing so far into Zululand 2 days after the fight?



Cheers
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyTue Feb 28, 2012 8:28 pm

Hi DB14

Lieutenant Anstey's remains were subsequently recovered from the battlefield by his brother, Captain Thomas Anstey, Royal Engineers, who had them conveyed to England 10th April 1880, and had them interred in Woking, Surrey. On 22nd April 1880, a letter by his father, G A Anstey, appeared in 'The Times' newspaper:
'Sir, A notice has appeared in an evening paper and has been copied thence into a morning paper, purporting to be an account of the burial of my son, the late Lieutenant Edgar Oliphant Anstey, of the 1st Battalion 24th Regiment. I am impelled by indignation to this at me and mine most offensive publication to request that you may kindly find space in 'The Times' for the following: Lieutenant Anstey was killed at the slaughter of Isandlana (sic) on the 22nd January, 1879. His remains, together with those who fell around him, received hasty interment some months later at the hands of their comrades of the 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment, who were then quartered at Rorke's Drift.
His brother, aided by Lieutenant Armitage, 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment, who had on the occasion of the first interment identified the remains of my son, subsequently removed them from the spot where he fell. After being brought home they were buried, on the 10th instant, in the family vault in the little churchyard of St John's, near Woking Station. The ceremony was purposely strictly private, members of my family, including myself and two daughters, alone being present.'
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyTue Feb 28, 2012 8:36 pm

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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyWed Feb 29, 2012 6:59 pm

Thanks 1879Graves Salute
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyWed Feb 29, 2012 7:08 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
I've read that Lt Anstey's body was found 2 days after the fight by his brother and eventualy brought back to Englnad.

What was his brother doing so far into Zululand 2 days after the fight?



Cheers

Looking for the body of his brother?
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyWed Feb 29, 2012 7:16 pm

I'm sure i read some where it was only 2 days after the fight. Must be mistaken.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyWed Feb 29, 2012 7:32 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
I'm sure i read some where it was only 2 days after the fight. Must be mistaken.

No you're right. Can't have been 2 days later according to the letter of Anstey's father which Graves posted.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyWed Feb 29, 2012 8:33 pm

The date of the Battle is wrong?

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I recall reading somewhere that his body was dug-up. Could be wrong.
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90th

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PostSubject: Anstey's Body   Anstey's body EmptyThu Mar 01, 2012 2:14 am

Hi all.
Positive this is mentioned earlier on the forum , but from ' The Noble 24th ' ; '' Lt Anstey's remains were subsequently recovered from the battlefield by his brother , Capt Thomas Anstey , RE , Who had them conveyed to England 10 / 4 / 80 and had them interred in Woking , Surrey . On 22 / 4 / 1880 '' . We can see it was 1 year to the day after he was killed he was laid to rest in England which was more likely good luck than good management !. Not sure if his brother was searching the battlefield 2 days after the event Shocked Shocked Shocked . I dont think anyone was there so soon afterwards . Suspect
cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyThu Mar 01, 2012 7:32 am

Hi all

In agreement with Garry, two days after, it does not stand up ...

Salute

Pascal
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptySat Mar 17, 2012 5:13 pm

Found the source for 2 days after the fight

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Cheers
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quint




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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyMon Mar 19, 2012 10:38 pm

I have just been reading Lock and Q again and in particular the impression that the companies may have been understrength as a lot of the men were engaged in task relating to the urgent business of attending to the moving of the camp etc; in this light is there any reason to believe that Anstey was at the Manzinyama with his men at the start of the battle working on the crossing there and was surprised and killed there by the right horn without ever going up to the camp and fighting there? Bearing in mind the timings - could some of the men between there and the camp have been killed being driven in the camp's direction in the face of the right wing sweeping in? It otherwise sounds somewhat unlikely that 40 or so men could drive a way for miles through literally thousands of Zulus - especially when the Zulus had firearms and no doubt could have put down a heavy fire on men in the open. Just a thought.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyTue Mar 20, 2012 7:17 am

Quint
First point.
Its unlikely that a significant amount of men were involved in preparing to move the camp. The orders for that were delivered by Gardner to Pullein at the same time as sightings of the main impi were being received. Gardner advised Pullein to then ignore the note.
Second point.
Ansteys body although found adjacent to the Manzimyana was nowhere near the road crossing point. Its highly debatable that the so called road works team was actually working on the road to the rear of the mountain. There is compelling evidence that the road being worked on was to the front of the mountain on the track that Chelmsford had used that morning. There is a reference to the team being requested by Coghill in his diary.

Third point
Its not only feasable but highly likely that Anstey did fight his way down to the stream. The position his body was located is not in isolation. From the stream to the saddle is a series of cairns, The clumps of bodies were likened by Noggs Newman to a string of pearls.
His wasnt the final killing area, there are other cairns on the far bank of the stream.

Look up the battlefield on Google Earth, the cairns stand out very clearly. It will give you an idea of the retreat and the slow decimation of the retreating company/ companies.

Hope that helps

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyTue Mar 20, 2012 9:17 am

Thanks very much Springbok
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyTue Mar 20, 2012 4:41 pm

Springbok

Do you have any theiors as to when Anstey left the field ?

Is it likely he retired from the firing line and kept going or staged a stand on the saddle and was
forced down the way he took ?


Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyWed Mar 21, 2012 6:26 am

DB 14
I have no doubts at all that Anstey fought his way across the battlefield to the saddle. The question is really did he have the experience, the 'battle savvy', to be able to do that? Or possibly he had help from a more senior officer?
We generally credit Anstey and F company as being on the right flank of Younghusband, potentially having Stafford and Shepstone in between ( notice the potentially).
Both Anstey and Younghusband had the easiest path back to the saddle so possibly easy to say that lead to their massing on the saddle.
Snook maintains that the companies fought across the battlefield through the tents. personally I believe that would be impossible to do and maintain cohesion.

So taking that forward would it be beyond imagination that Younghusband, Anstey and I believe Shepstone were the large group mentioned in eye witness accounts. Staffords men had allready left.Thats a pretty sizable force and with the right handling could easily have kept the impis at bay, left /rear anchored on the base of the mountain.

So in the hypothetical case these three companies now force there way to the saddle and meet the right horn, probably engaged with Durnfords group, and the left horn engaged with H company.

C and F would be, in this scenario be working their way round the bottom of the tents and also heading towards the Saddle, being pressed by the chest.

H companies final fight is well marked by the proponderance of graves.

So for the final battle there would have been allmost a a line of trrops from Durnford /Pullen and those magnificent volunteers across to C and F then E Shepstone and Younghusband all being forced back and squeezed between the left, right and chest.

The line would have been broken by the camps and wagons of the MI and the 1/24th. So the individual, so well known and documented, stands would take place.

The grouping of Anstey, Younghusband and Shepstone would have started to fracture, with Anstey working back over the saddle along the road area, Younghusband and Shepstone being forced up the mountain, Younghusband to the right and Shepstone to the left.
Most importantly I believe that that major grouping was commanded by Henry Pullein. Its possible that he died just below the saddle along the track. At that point Anstey took over command and lead his men of down the trail in a fighting retreat.
Shepston died high up on the mountain scree, around the corner of the butress from Younghusband.

It is all conjecture and imagination but its a theory that ive developed over the years and if you look carefully at the statements and the available source documentation and then add the dots and crosses, its just possible it could have happened.

Have fun ripping it apart, lots of holes and conjecture there, but probably no more than any other Author or Historian.

Regards
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyWed Mar 21, 2012 9:06 pm

Thanks for that brilliant reply Springbok Very Happy

With that i can't see how Norse saw Pulleine with 40 men 800 yards
rear of the saddle, surly Norse would be long gone by the time Anstey
came this way ??


Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyThu Mar 22, 2012 5:49 am

DB14
I suppose the question to be asked then would be where did the 40 men come from? I doubt they would have been the ( wish I could spel ubiquitous) semi mythical camp followers? Long before that stage of the battle all the pioneers bandsmen etc had been sucked into the front line so theoretically they could only be retiring troops really. And probably the closest imperial troops would have been Younghusband or Anstey.

If you really want to crack the mystery of isandlwana the secret is in building a three dimensional time frame using time and space to position the known facts relative to each other. Would take a computer boffin with a tad more skills than my one finger attempts Im afraid. However the principle would be fairly easy to establish.

Why not give it a go. If you do then ignore Snook Davids et al and look at the source material first hand, its out there.

Regards
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptySun Apr 29, 2012 5:57 pm

Springbok

The only hole i can find is that according to Snook Shepstone was in the donga.



Cheers
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptySun Apr 29, 2012 7:19 pm

Quote :
according to Snook Shepstone was in the donga
Then he was... Salute
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyMon Apr 30, 2012 7:22 am

DB
I dont believe Snook gives any source for his positioning of Shepstone? Are there any other souces that put him in the Donga?
Dont forget that Shepstone didnt ride out with Durnford, he was on the ridge. hammers statement mentions riding back with Shepstone and reporting to Pullein, thyat at the same time as Gardner arrived. So well corroborated.
He, Shepstone then picked up various elements including the 3rd troop of Sikali's Horse and also the amaNgwane.

Regards
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyMon Apr 30, 2012 7:42 am

He says that Harry Davies saw him.




Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyMon Apr 30, 2012 8:23 am

DB
Just to many other sources that point to Shepstone being in the main camp area, from Hammer, Gardner etc. Plus verbatim conversations. Have another look at Jackson.


regards
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90th

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PostSubject: Anstey's Body.   Anstey's body EmptyMon Apr 30, 2012 11:50 am

Hi DB / Springbok .
I'm not home so cant check any books , I didnt think Shepstone was in the Donga for the simple reason that he didnt go out with
Chelmesford ; Didnt Chelmesford send Shepstone to the ridge to scout the area to the left of the camp ? . Shepstone was reported riding pell mell down from the ridge area to the camp but not sure what time this occured , to deliver information
to Pulleine and / or others . Salute Not sure why this discussion has entered this Anstey thread ??. Salute
cheers 90th.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyMon Apr 30, 2012 3:39 pm

90th

Wrong Shepstone, i think you mean Offy, he did go out with Chelsmford, we are on about George.


Snook has him in the camp, then on the spur and says how he must have ridden down
to the donga the same time as Gardner did. The source for him being in the Donga is Davies.

His theory is that he attampted to escape, got unhorsed and forced up the moutain
with Lonsdales NNC.



Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyMon Apr 30, 2012 7:22 pm

Db
Like all of us Snook has his theories and unfortunatly thats where they will remain. Its hard to discount eye witness accounts, like Davies, however its all about the balance of probabilities really.
Shepstone is with the amaNgwane horse on the plateau, leaves them and rides back to the camp blurts out his report. Gardiner arrives and becomes part of the conversation. Shepstones native Horse then arrive of the plateau, he picks them up and also the Sikhali Horse, all of this before Durnford has arrived back. The companies are then on line and Shepstone slots in below Younghusband. The fighting has allready started on the front line before Durnford arrives back. He gets into the Donga, Pope wheels around, to do that he has to pull back. Is it then conceivable that Shepstone would pull back out of line ride the mile or so across the battlefield to join Durnford? Cant see that some how.
Durnfords forces start to pull back, Gardiner sees it and dashes across, at that point Durnford has left the Donga. Would Shepstone have been in a position to see Gardiner ride across to see Durnford and join him?
And what would be the point?

So for Davies to have seen him in the Donga, it would have had to have been much much earlier that the Gardiner meeting.

To emphasise that point really Davies and Henderson rode back to get ammunition, so yet again he would have to have seen Shepstone within that first period of them arriving in the donga, a time when Shepstone should have been commanding his mixed troop on the front line.

A comment reported by Penn Symonds was that Shepstone was joking with his colleagues and said that Pulleine thought he was mad. I dont know which colleagues he was refering to and get my hands on the PS report to verify it.
However it does point to a bunch of guys laughing about an incident, that couldnt have been with his friends in the Durnford party, life was a tad hectic down in the Donga, therefore it must have been whilst he was on line and would therefore probably point to him being in the company of Stafford and maybe Raw. All in or around the front line.

As I said all speculation really.

By the way didnt one of the suvivors quote Coghill as saying that he had seen Shepstone fighting on the saddle?


regards
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyMon Apr 30, 2012 7:44 pm

Springbok

I think Snook means when Gardner took Bradstreet and the mounted men down to the Donga.

If it was the other time i would agree with you.


Cheers
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90th

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PostSubject: Anstey's Body    Anstey's body EmptyTue May 01, 2012 6:22 am

Hi DB,
No , I'm talking about George , isnt that who we are talking about ?????.
Cheers 90th. Salute
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyTue May 01, 2012 8:37 am

DB
Possible.
Gardiner took Bradstreet ( doesnt mention Shepstone and thats strange because they were both Captains ) down to the Donga before Durnford arrived. Theres still a lot of uncertainty about those reinforcements. Barjers statement says that Durnford found him in Carbineers camp getting ammunition and instructed them to follow him to the Donga, around a mile from the camp.

Davies says he met Bradstreets men in a Donga 300 metres from the camp.

So the possibility does exist that there were two stands by Durnford.

Molife also puts a stand at a Donga "quite close to the camp".

Either way it would mean George Shepstone :
either being commandered by Gardner ( Gardner doesnt mention that )
or taking a decision to leave his own command, unlikely
or taking his command with him.
or was Davies wrong?

Barkers statement specifically says that when the were ordered to accompany Durnford, he had mounted natives with him, could that have been Shepstones men?

Interesting stuff
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyTue May 01, 2012 9:23 am

DB

As a further pointer, when Durnford left the Donga, Molife says that he had allready sent Davies and Henderson back for ammunition.
This left the Native troops without white officers. That says that Shepstone wasnt there.

regards
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyTue May 01, 2012 3:58 pm

Springbok

Sergant-Major Hlubi Molife says that Durnford left the donga and went back to camp.
Could George Shepstone not have gone back with Vause to get ammuntion and met Durnford in the camp ?

Wasn't Durnford dismoutning, taking up a diffrent posistion all the time, so couldn't he have just made a brief
stand in the nyogane donga before retreating to the Mpofane ?

But against that Doesn't Melokazulu describe the posistion Donga, and that it was near a red hil ?

Cochrane only mentions one donga, but he was sent to get artilery fire.



Cheers



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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyTue May 01, 2012 4:21 pm

DB14

Durnford did go back to the camp area, fairly early on really because he met Barker getting ammunition and sent him down to the nyogane. So that undoubtably was the first stand.
Then Davies and Molife both refer to a donga 300 metres from the camp, that has to be the Mpofane. So yep there must have been two stands. Also the line of the second stand as and when it was breached/abandoned would allow the zulus more or less instant access to the camp and to the flank of Pope. If the line was breached a mile out of camp then surely Pope would have had time to react. That also puts Durnford closer to the action and could account for the various sightings of him, conversations etc.

Ive started a different thread to look at this aspect. For this one however back to your original point of Shepstone being there.............. still cant see it. No witnesses, that includes Davies.

And again when Shepstones body was found he was surrounded by his own men. Would he have left the line and gone down to the donga and then back to the line collected his men then retreated? Or would he have taken his men down to the donga, surely that couldnt have happened without some one taking note.


regards
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyTue May 01, 2012 4:22 pm

I don't understand Hlubi's account


While here our ammunition ran low and we asked for more, and an order was given that some of the men should go to the Camp for some. Before this could be done we saw that the Camp was being taken. Colonel Durnford rode off to the Camp with one man leaving us with Mr Henderson. We left the donga and followed Colonel Durnford.





Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyTue May 01, 2012 4:24 pm

Springbok

What men was Shepstone commanding ?



Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyTue May 01, 2012 6:26 pm

On the ridge he was commanding the NNH, aMangwane, When he rode down to see Pulleine he left Raw in charge I believe.

regards
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyTue May 01, 2012 9:14 pm

Quote :
Springbok
What men was Shepstone commanding ?
Cheers

This from Col: Mike Snook. From another forum. Dated 2005 Good possibility.

"An interesting subject I agree. There are no Zulu sources of relevance on this one. One might infer from the fact that the bodies do not get a mention in Major Black's reports of his June returns to the battlefield, that they are almost certainly NNC men. This woull fit with a scenario in which the NNC infantry break/desert (they were not where most people think they were), and are then confronted by the right horn in the Manzimyama Valley. 

I believe there is a strong possibility they were the men of Capt Lonsdale's Zulu company. How Shepstone came to be there will never be solved. In my forthcoming book I suggest that he might have been unhorsed in the Manzimyama Valley. I do not believe these men fought 'under' Shepstone simply that he happened to die there with them. The Shepstones were of course a powerful family and the idea of a gallant last stand under one of the clan has more to do with this than with military reality on the ground. 

I am as certain as it is possible to be that whoever they were, they ended up there out of necessity not out of design. In other words it was not an organized attempt to hold the rear. They were driven back up the slope by the onset of the right horn and annihilated where the options for further flight ran out. "
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyTue May 01, 2012 10:17 pm

scratch Dave. I think you have posted in the wrong thread. Unless I'm missing something. M

No. It's in the right thread. Gets confusing with Stepstone running in two threads.
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyWed May 02, 2012 7:35 am

There is a mention of who the bodies were, just need to locate it. They were described as the aMangwane. Could have been Mainwaring?
Col Snooks 'unhorsing' comment is speculative .
I do agree that Shepstone wasnt there by design, I dont believe he was sent there, by the time he could have got there the right wing was allready in the camp.

regards
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyWed May 02, 2012 7:53 am

springbok9 wrote:
There is a mention of who the bodies were, just need to locate it. They were described as the aMangwane.

Would that make them NNH or NNC




Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyWed May 02, 2012 8:34 am

Natal Native Horse, probably the troops he was on the ridge with, and with Raw.

Basically ties in with the numbers of troops Raw says he lost/were killed.

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptyMon Jun 09, 2014 9:56 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptySun Aug 21, 2022 5:23 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Shields Daily Gazette - Monday 30 June 1879
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptySun Aug 21, 2022 5:36 pm

Kate who is this attributed to?
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptySun Aug 21, 2022 5:41 pm

It doesn't give an author Frank, it is just under a column entitled 'Chat' in the newspaper.
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptySun Aug 21, 2022 5:47 pm

I wonder if it was Lieut Armitage Frank?
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptySun Aug 21, 2022 5:54 pm

I've seen the 'waiter' reference before. I'm back home mid week I can check then.
Thanks Kste
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptySun Aug 21, 2022 6:04 pm

Kate I would suggest Julians essay on Ansteys body refers.
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptySun Aug 21, 2022 6:30 pm

Tigar I think Kate
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptySun Aug 21, 2022 9:28 pm

From the latest edition of my book:
"The writer could not have been referring to Black’s burial parties of 20th, 23rd, 25th and 26th June, nor to his earlier visits of 8th June or 19th May. The only remaining visit is the one of 14th March. Forbes did not arrive in Natal until April. His 15th May report merely stated that Anstey’s body was recognized by someone who had clearly known him well. Apart from Black, the only other 24th men present were Capts. Symons, Harvey and Banister and Col.-Sergt. Tigar, all 2/24th, and Forbes must have obtained his information from one of them."
I no longer believe it could have been Tigar - he would not have been present at a Mansion House banquet; the writer must have been one of the four officers.
Julian
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PostSubject: Re: Anstey's body   Anstey's body EmptySun Aug 21, 2022 10:18 pm

And I must admit when I first read it I couldn't imagine an enlisted man referring to an officer as 'the lad'. Especially not in an account that was to be publicly published.
To me its the sort of turn of phrase a more experienced officer would use to describe a newly promoted and inexperienced officer.
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