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 Pulleine was he capable ?

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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 5:56 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:
But no, because of the victory of Centane he thought the MH break all imaginable black warriors charges ...

As would most anybody in his shoes, is my guess. Don't most of us go by prior experience? He had trouble crediting reports that the Zulu were different from his prior opponents. The pervasive racism of that day would only have added to his blindness to the danger he was courting. I'm also quite sure there weren't 25k Xhosa at Centane. He's hardly the first general to be caught out fighting the last war...and he did learn from his mistakes. He was LUCKY however that he didn't lose both battalions of the 24th on the first go round. IMO that easily could have happened.
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 6:16 pm

He HAD trouble reports crediting que le Zulu Were different from his Prior Opponents.

Very Good 6 PDRs and what reports ...?
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 8:25 pm

Martin

Pulleine didn't disobay any orders, he wasn't told to laager, he was told to defend the camp by deploying
his troops in a forward posistion.

Cheers
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 9:38 pm

The important part of his orders were!

"Draw in the line of your infantry outposts accordingly; but keep your cavalry vedettes still far advanced."

Doesn't say forward position?
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 9:40 pm

Dave

Read Chelmsfords orders that Julian has reproduced, the drawing Chelmsford made matches with
how Pulleine deployed the troops.



Cheers
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 9:49 pm

If I'm not mistaken they were standing orders issued prior it Isandlwana. The Order past to Pulliene by Clery is the one that he was to obey issued on the 22nd Jan. I can't find Julian's post you speak of. Could you give me the date and time of posting or a link. If its the standing orders. Don't worry about it.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 10:22 pm

Dave

Its all in his book that just came out or his 1990 article.



Cheers
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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 10:32 pm

Quote :
Its all in his book that just came out or his 1990 article

But is it the standing orders Dave is refering to, Issued prior to Isandlwana.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 10:34 pm

Issued to all the column commanders to be followed if the Zulus attacked, Pulleine followed them at Isandlwana
and Pearson used them at Nyzne.




Cheers
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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 10:42 pm

DB Was it issued prior to the order being issued to Pulleine on the 22nd.
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90th

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PostSubject: Pulleine was he capable    Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 12:59 am

Hi 6pdr .
Agree 100 % . LC did think the firepower of his Column was indeed enough to stop any attack that the zulu may instigate .
Usual story , this was a complete underestimation of the zulu and their abilities .
Cheers 90th.


Last edited by 90th on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 6:32 am

Bravo Gary.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Pulleine was he capable?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 12:38 pm

Hi Sam.

You seem to be under the impression that Pulleine was a column commander, and was therefor following Chelmsford's orders in his layout of the defence of iSandlwana.

However, Chelmsford's orders were only sent to column commanders, ie; Durnford, Glyn, Pearson, Rowlands and Wood's, and not to Battalion commanders. Pulleine was a battalion commander, and only became a temporary column commander after 4 am when Chelmsford left the camp. So the question now arises, did Pulleine know of those standing orders?
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 12:50 pm

Dear Mr M. Cooper


LC has left a Pulleine tactical instructions for the defense of the camp ...

They come straight out of the manual of 1877 Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


Best regards Mr M. Cooper


Pascal the Rascal
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 1:41 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
...Chelmsford's orders were only sent to column commanders, ie; Durnford, Glyn, Pearson, Rowlands and Wood's, and not to Battalion commanders. Pulleine was a battalion commander, and only became a temporary column commander after 4 am when Chelmsford left the camp. So the question now arises, did Pulleine know of those standing orders?

That is a subtle point Mr. Cooper! I am also curious about how much attention even the column commanders would have paid to such a document. I doubt Durnford, for example, would have found the document particularly relevant to his command. Anybody who has ever worked in a large organization knows that a lot of paper gets pushed down on people. Some treat it as Gospel and some treat is as toilet paper. Most pick and choose based on the source.

Of course my thinking could be highly anachronistic here. Maybe such documents were fewer back then and therefore got taken more seriously? This is where somebody who really understands the military culture of that era is valuable. But I think we should be careful about the tendency to regard everything that was written down as representative of reality. After all, Chelmsford famously did not follow his own directives with regard to entrenching the camp...and IMO he was perfectly justified in not doing so despite the disaster that ensued. In the end we're measured by results, not religious adherence to instructions.
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 1:52 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:
He HAD trouble reports crediting que le Zulu Were different from his Prior Opponents.

Very Good 6 PDRs and what reports ...?

Well, I know that he consulted with John Dunn and various Boers who had engaged the Zulu. Chelmsford also hired guys like Fynn to be quasi-intelligence officers. He actively sought out advice. He wasn't a bull headed fool. I just think when all you have ever fought are missile flinging armies, it's really hard to imagine the impact that a Macedonian phalanx or Roman legion have when they hit your line. And that's what the Zulu brought to the table that Chelmsford's prior opponents had lacked... The Zulu moved like skirmishers and closed like shock troops. They were fairly unique.
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 2:42 pm

Before 1879, in the Indies, with the irregular troops of the Sikhs ,Afghansl , the irregular accompanying the sepoys then the Pathan , the British Army has faced many opponents who attacked the same way as the zulus...

Only the British army was armed with 1842 muskets ,Miniés and enfiel rifles ,also they are more cautious in theirs tactical formations, because they lacked a good BLR rifle before the MH...(The snider was not a good gun, just a stopgap...)

It is the use of the rifle MH against the Xhosa in 1878 which completely deluded LC, he felt that the stopping power of rifle MH is suffisant ...

Therefore, there is no question of squares in the regulations of 1877 and LC will not hear discussed laagers ...

With MLR, the British would have made ​​other types of formations at Isandhlwana per prudence...

Cheers

Pascal
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 4:46 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:
Before 1879, in the Indies, with the irregular troops of the Sikhs ,Afghansl , the irregular accompanying the sepoys then the Pathan , the British Army has faced many opponents who attacked the same way as the zulus...

True, the British army had faced those peoples but not Chelmsford and most of the 24th. I think you are right about their belief that the stopping power of the MH rifle though.
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 4:50 pm

It is the same with the French who breathed by the Chassepot rifle in 1870, as he shot twice as far and as fast as the german Dreyse rifle...
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 4:59 pm

[quote="Mr M. Cooper"]Hi Sam.

You seem to be under the impression that Pulleine was a column commander, and was therefor following Chelmsford's orders in his layout of the defence of iSandlwana.

However, Chelmsford's orders were only sent to column commanders, ie; Durnford, Glyn, Pearson, Rowlands and Wood's, and not to Battalion commanders. Pulleine was a battalion commander, and only became a temporary column commander after 4 am when Chelmsford left the camp. So the question now arises, did Pulleine know of those standing orders?[/quote]

Very good point Martin. Idea I am not sure that anyone has ever raised this point before, well said. Salute
Hopefully, some of the more knowledgeable members of this forum will come back on that point.

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 5:06 pm

Hi Tasker

Pulleine knew nothing of the standing orders of LC.
He Has only left at Pulleine, tactical instructions for the defense of the camp ...

They come straight out of the manual of 1877 Very Happy

Cheers

Pascal the Rascal
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 5:14 pm

Left Pulleine, a man more adept at admin than soldiering in charge with some rudimentary tactical instructions. Pulleine would not have been too well read in regards to the standing orders and tactical arrangements.
Clearly LC wasn't expecting the camp to be attacked.
Perhaps I have been a little too harsh on Pulleine in the past?!?!
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 5:16 pm

Martin

If he didn't know about them why do Pulleine battle plan match exactly with Chelsmfords ?

How do you now that Gyln didn't discuss them with all the officers of the column ? Its most likely he did.



Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 5:19 pm

In any case, they are all guilty because they underestimate the Zulus, incredibly, what misery I pity the ranks, before doing so killed, they had much to blame idiots who put in this galley ...
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 5:42 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Martin

If he didn't know about them why do Pulleine battle plan match exactly with Chelsmfords ?

How do you now that Gyln didn't discuss them with all the officers of the column ? Its most likely he did.



Cheers

He may well have done DB. One would imagine that Melville and the company officers were paying more attention than Pulleine though! And the company commanders would have been more astute than Pulleine.
We must remember that when Pulleine DID finally decide the camp was in danger, he did not have to call all the shots himself - he would have received suggestions and have been ably prompted and prodded by his officers.
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 5:47 pm

Also Tasker ,Pulleine was not capable like Durnford...
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Pulleine was he capable?   Pulleine was he capable ? - Page 3 EmptyThu Dec 06, 2012 12:02 am

Hi Sam.

That is the question I am asking, did Pulleine know?

He was a Battalion commander, not a column commander, I have searched but can't find anything about Battalion commanders being privy to column commanders orders, but like tasker says, they may well have discussed it, but I can't find anything to say they did.

Salute
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