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 Natal Carbineer at RD

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impi
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impi

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Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 05, 2012 7:24 pm

Give it time Julian, will come up with the answer.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 05, 2012 7:49 pm

Not if I find him first....
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 06, 2012 8:23 am

He doesnt exist. He was a dramatisation based on Harry Luggs memoirs.

Regards
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 06, 2012 8:40 am

Springbok
This is what I now believe - a confused Morris somehow mangled Lugg's account in his notes, used his notes rather than the original in his book, and then Glover, Bancroft and Snook, et al., simply took it as read without checking the source.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 06, 2012 8:53 am

'Make it up strikes again.'

Regards
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 06, 2012 8:50 am

Julian
What really annoys the hell out of me is that Bancroft Snook et al, without checking sources perpetuate a myth, and myths develop into fact.
Then later day researchers/enthusiasts spend time chasing down sources that dont exist.

If Im proved wrong I will offer sincere apologies to Mr Morris' memory.

Regards
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 06, 2012 8:55 am

Ditto.
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PostSubject: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 06, 2012 10:51 am

Hi springbok and Julian.

I can appreciate how you both feel, I have a similar "annoyance" in regard to certain people, places, web sites, etc, getting it right, and giving the credit to the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment as being the regiment that fought in the AZW at both iSandlwana and RD, rather than crediting a mythical Welsh regiment who's name did not even exist until 2 years after the AZW. It is so annoying that the regiments name is never mentioned by these people, places and web sites, in an effort to hide the truth from the general public and keep up the myth and make it appear as fact.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 06, 2012 10:54 am

Hi Martin
Well I'll be, never knew that? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry mate couldnt resist it.

Cheers
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 6:07 pm

Its got to be one of these.

Muirhead
Fletcher
Sibthorpe
Barker
Tarboton
Edwards
Granger
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 6:38 pm

LH

Its fiction and if it wasn't it couldn't be Muirhead, Sibthorpe,Barker,Tarboton or Edwards.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 6:54 pm

Okay if you say so... Then it narrows it down to

Fletcher
Granger
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 6:54 pm

It didn't happen.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 6:55 pm

Your source!!!
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 6:57 pm

There isn't one at all.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 7:03 pm

You give up to easy.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 7:06 pm

Given that every account has been through, and Morris wrote it, it has to be fiction.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 7:09 pm

Although is not the one Julian is looking for. Lugg comes very close.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 7:23 pm

Well obviously it has...but that's not the question. My question was who was the source of the anecdote. If it was made up, it's none of them!
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 7:47 pm

Who do you think it was. If we had some idea, we make be able to find something that points us in the right direction.
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90th

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PostSubject: Natal Carbineer At RD.   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 10, 2012 4:56 am

Hi All.
We are going nowhere here , Littlehand you posted those 7 Carbineer's names on page 1 of this thread , if you read my post after that you'll see it was narrowed to two possibilities , Julian knows this as well , but Julian cant find any source linking anyone as to be the silent Carbineer , that is the problem . Not really who it is , but finding the source is the main idea , I think ?? .
Cheers 90th. Salute


Last edited by 90th on Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 10, 2012 10:56 pm

The posts relating to E.H & A.G have been moved to the Off Topic Section.
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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 10, 2012 11:41 pm

So if we amend Lugg's account to.

"Lugg’s actual account of the defence commences on the afternoon of the 22 January 1879, an account that was first published in the the correspondence columns of the Bristol Observer in March of the same year:

‘ ...
Quote :
It must have been about 2.40 p.m. when a carbineer rode into the little yard, without boots, tunic, or arms, and leading a spare horse.

Morris made up the rest, and there we have it. (The silent Carbineer)

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 9:34 am

oldhistorian
It's Morris's account that need amending, not Lugg's. Lugg recalled events as he remembered them as accurately as possible. It appears to be Morris that has cut short Lugg's account by ignoring everything after the carbineer's arrival...unless someone can find a genuine reference to a silent carbineer.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptySat Dec 29, 2012 9:49 pm

Gents just reading through some old posts.

I see quite a lot of you were telling LH the account didn't exsist. It was fiction you said. Made- up.


Was it!!! Salute
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barry

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PostSubject: The silent Carbineer   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 6:29 am


Hi Impi,

I concur with what has been said in previous posts, and that is that Lugg's accounts of RD were probably the foundation for this one. In all liklehood Morris "modified" Lugg's account to suit his story.
I do believe however that the man in question was an NMP trooper, Hayes,.... and not a Carbineer.
The mistaken indentity, by Lugg, was easy as Hayes came in disarmed, stripped of his uniform ,speachless and leading two horses.
Now his medical condition gives a bit of the clue, he had been suffering from "brain fever" prior to the Isandlwana battle and never spoke to anyone again in his life post his experiences in the battle.
As he was stripped of his uniform it is likely the Zulu's had captured him, taken his uniform and his carbine and he propably had a miraculous escape from an impending horrible death in their hands, arriving at RD mid afternoon 22/01 with the horses.
He died in the Helpmekaar hospital a few days later and being mute, never recounted his experiences.
His grave is in the Helpmekaar hospital cemetery.

regards

barry
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 10:42 am

NMP trooper, Hayes. Interesting. Didn't take much notice of this chap first time around. Some very good points Barry!!
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 10:58 am

Barry
I think I finally nailed this in The Brave Fugitive, which was the reason I raised the post in the first place. Morris mangled Lugg's account. A definitive identification of the man as a carbineer by Lugg precludes Hayes - a man and a uniform he would have known.
The notion that Zulus would have captured a man and let him go is simply not on.


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barry

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 12:28 pm



Julian,
Thanks for responding.
I have since, this matter was first raised, checked to find that Lugg would probably have not known Hayes, despite both being NMP.
This was because Lugg had only been in the force 9 months at the time and came from a training posting in southern Natal to the battlefield with Mansels column of 116 + men.
Hayes had been drafted from a northern Natal out station, where being an older man, had been for some time and came into Helpemekaar, seperately with 20 troopers from that part of Natal with Dartnell, arriving there a day or two after Mansel had arrived.
Now, the accounts I have say that Hayes, on arrrival speachless at RD, was stripped of all uniform other that trousers, which were indentified as being Carbineer's uniform I believe that this fact is not conclusive enough to stay with the Carbineer theory as those could have been recovered from the battlefield.
Escaping from the clutches of the Zulu's is very conceivable as many others did it.
My money stays on Hayes as the rest of the details are just too coincidental


regards

barry


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John

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 12:40 pm

Here's some information on Hayes from Ian Knight.

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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 2:00 pm

John
Dorehill's account merely states that Hayes was having a bad dream, not that he was in fever (he would have been in hospital had he been that bad). Knight and others have speculated that perhaps this bad dream was the first stirrings of the fever that killed him in February...a bit far in advance perhaps?

Barry
Although Lugg might not have known Hayes personally he would have recognized the uniform - the 'silent carbineer' must have been sufficiently clad to be recognizable as a carbineer otherwise the description would have been 'volunteer'.
I am intrigued by two things you wrote:
"the accounts I have say that Hayes, on arrrival speachless at RD, was stripped of all uniform other that trousers, which were indentified as being Carbineer's uniform I believe that this fact is not conclusive enough to stay with the Carbineer theory as those could have been recovered from the battlefield."
What accounts do you have of Hayes's arriving at RD? I have never come across any at all!! I'd be dleighted to hear of these because the best information I have is that Hayes arrived at Helpmekaar via Fugitives' Drift.
"Escaping from the clutches of the Zulu's is very conceivable as many others did it."
Apart from Grandier at Hlobane (whose capture was lengthy) I know of no other Briton or colonial who was captured by the Zulus and then freed or escaped. Again I'd be delighted to know of these.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 2:15 pm

Would Hall have been wearing uniform trousers.
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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 2:31 pm

Barry
I should try reading my own book. Dorehill escaped in the company of three men one of whom was Hayes. They went via Fugitives' Drift to Helpmekaar - nowhere near RD. The man could not have been Hayes. And by the way he died on 24th February.
John
No, Hall was a civilian conductor attached to the ACTD. He would have been in civvies.
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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 2:34 pm

Quote :
No, Hall was a civilian conductor attached to the ACTD. He would have been in civvies.

Wasn't the man identified as a Carbineer because of the trousers.
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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 3:09 pm

Where did ride off to after he left RD scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 3:22 pm

According to John Young,
Quote :
"Henderson was the meat contractor of the Natal Mounted Police, Bob Hall."
So was hall in the NMP.
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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 3:29 pm

John
Yes, one presumes so. Since there is no primary source how can one actually tell?
Chard #1
It can only have been Helpmekaar.
Chard #2
Most people believed originally that Hall was a meat contractor of some sort because after he escaped he went to check on some cattle he had near Helpmekaar. Units did not have their own contractors. Contractors dealt with all units so there was no specific meat contractor for the NMP. His other letter in which he specifically names the surviving waggon conductors seems to indicate that he was also one himself. Having said that, the matter is by no means settled. Hall did join the NMP 25 years later for the 1906 Bambatha Rebellion.
Both
I am convinced it was simply Morris mangling Lugg. No primary source has emerged which mentions this incident. It can only have been Morris confusing the issue.


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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 9:57 pm

Morris makes reference to this incident, but as far as I can see he says no more other than what we know. He doesn't speak of Lugg in the same context.
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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 9:25 am

LHand
All subsequent accounts stem from Morris's account of this man at this time. Searches for a source that Morris used for this man at this time reveal nothing. The closest is Lugg's account which has a different time and a different set of circumstances surrounding the man (he talks, his words are recorded, others name him as Fletcher).
The notion of the 'silent carbineer' who says nothing, shakes his head mentally, and moves on may have appealed to Morris's notion of Hollywood or stirrings of Texan hopelessness at the Alamo. Who knows? He mangled less straightforward events - Newnham-Davis/Davies - Barry's coy - Adendorff/Vaines - why not this episode too?
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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 12:09 pm

But if as LH says Morris doesnt mention any names in relation to this chap, how can Morris be accused of mangling Lugg scratch


Barry, what do you have that makes you think it was "Hayes"?
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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 1:52 pm

John
Read the Brave Fugitive - the description of Lugg's witnessing of Fletcher's arrival and state replicates that of Morris. There is nowhere else Morris could have lifted it from.
Re Hayes, as I've said, Dorehill states in his account that he escaped with Hayes via Fugitives' Drift to Helpmekaar.
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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 3:36 pm

Julian, are you able to post the Dorehill account.
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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 4:31 pm

I shall post the relevant section of Dorehill's account for you. Give me a day or two.
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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 5:30 pm

Salute Is that to recover after your New Years party..
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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 01, 2013 11:15 am

John
No, it was to give me time to dig out the entire transcript. However, to save time the source is
'Broadcast Reminiscences of Natal 1937-1939: Colonel Lewis Radio Talk 1939, Killie Campbell Africana Library, MS BRO KCM 2086, pp. 61-6'. You can dig this out for yourself but the quotation in the transcript is:

"Dorehill escaped with Private Gascoigne [2/3rd] of the Mounted Infantry, Trooper Hayes of the Natal Mounted Police, and Sergeant Costello [sic] of the Royal Artillery."
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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 01, 2013 5:13 pm

They seemed to have ensure a list was made of those that survived and made it to Helpmaarker. "Hall" doesn't appear to be on that list. All others do.

I know this has been posted before. Names near the bottom of page. Click on link.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 01, 2013 8:22 pm

impi
The provisional official list of survivors was made early on the 24th (by Essex) of those that had stayed at Helpmekaar (or he was aware had passed through) and that he could verify had been at Isandhlwana. It appears in Clements's book. He finishes with the figure of 48 (although if you count them it's 49). Many familiar names are missing incl. Hall. The number of Europeans known to have escaped is 87 plus a possible 4 more. The full list is in England's Sons (7th edition).
On the list appearing in the link Graham gives the wrong date of death for Hayes - it was one month later.
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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 01, 2013 10:27 pm

England's Sons (7th edition). Julian where can I obtain a copy. I have the 4th edition, so somewhat behind.
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https://www.1879zuluwar.com
90th

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PostSubject: Natal Carbineer at RD.   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 01, 2013 11:45 pm

I checked mine and it seems I have the 6th Edition .
90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Natal Carbineer at RD   Natal Carbineer at RD - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 02, 2013 11:31 am

Hello to all

Julian write

"The notion Zulus That Would have captured a man and let him go is simply not on."

Error my dear Julian, look Grandier ...

Cheers

Pascal
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