WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» New member
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 9:12 pm by AlanB

» CUNNINGHAM
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 7:05 pm by Julian Whybra

» Information on Zungen Nek ??????
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun Jul 12, 2020 9:46 pm by IqhaweWeb

» Rorkes drift Hotel
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 10, 2020 4:57 am by aussie inkosi

» Staff College, Camberley. Class of 1880-1
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 08, 2020 6:46 pm by Beckwith

» Pete Smith Cottage.
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 07, 2020 6:29 am by 90th

» Lt C. Williams KIA Hlobane
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 07, 2020 5:09 am by 90th

» Diamond Fields Horse in Zululand
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 07, 2020 4:58 am by 90th

» Buffalo Border Guard Anonymous Letter
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 11:42 pm by Julian Whybra

» Surgn. J. McGann. A. M. Dept
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 11:07 pm by ADMIN

» Lieutenant-Colonel William Henry Dowling Reeves Welman, 99th
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 10:54 pm by ADMIN

» Commander C. Lindsay.
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 10:42 pm by ADMIN

» Reopening National Archives
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 10:01 pm by Bill8183

» S.SMITH Buffalo Border Guard
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 1:48 pm by Julian Whybra

» NNC Officer List
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 1:45 pm by Ells

» One of the lesser-known stories. It took place around the same time as Isandlwana.
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 7:37 am by Julian Whybra

» N Batt 5th Bde RA
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySat Jul 04, 2020 11:52 am by Rory Reynolds

» Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 03, 2020 12:38 pm by Frank Allewell

» Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 03, 2020 6:06 am by SRB1965

» Malicious malware on this site
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 10:26 pm by intombe

» Zulu Victory - Views?
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 6:52 pm by WeekendWarrior

» Isandlwana Survivor photo's
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 3:56 pm by Julian Whybra

» Anyone got information on this.
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 3:55 pm by Julian Whybra

» Captn. H. G. Bowen, 88th Foot
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 1:18 pm by gstew88

» The South Africa Medal to HMS Forester - an anomaly?
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 01, 2020 7:41 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» Lieut. R. F. Dixon NMR
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 01, 2020 5:01 am by 90th

» Next month's DNW medal auction
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jun 30, 2020 6:45 am by 90th

» Zulu war medals on eBay
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 29, 2020 5:14 pm by SergioD

» John Basten
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 28, 2020 1:20 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» Lieutenant Walter Robert Higginson NNC
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 28, 2020 11:19 am by ciroferrara

» Letter home from Eshowe
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 25, 2020 2:24 pm by Blackcat

» Melvill's Revolver Cylinder
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 25, 2020 10:05 am by Drummer Boy 14

» Assistant Commissary W. Winspear Commissariat Department, present at Gingindlovu
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 22, 2020 12:05 pm by ADMIN

» Orders to laager at Isandhlwana
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 21, 2020 7:11 pm by SRB1965

» morale and the siege at Eshowe
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 19, 2020 9:58 am by Blackcat

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Rorke's Drift A Soldier's Story with presenter Major John Thomas
Top posters
90th
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
littlehand
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
ADMIN
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
1879graves
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
rusteze
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
John
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Frank Allewell
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
90th
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
WeekendWarrior
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
ADMIN
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
Ells
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
Rory Reynolds
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
John Young
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
Brett Hendey
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
SRB1965
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_leftWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 BarWho was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Bar_right 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.1
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable.2
Durnford was he capable. 3
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Adding to the Library
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.

 

 Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.

Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2
AuthorMessage
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2329
Join date : 2011-09-12

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jan 27, 2014 10:20 pm

Springbok and John Young (if you're watching this)
This Old Soldier may have the name of Sergt. McCabe from his imagination but the real sergt of the guard was McCaffery and we only know from Sergt Daly's letter to McCaffery's wife that McCaffery was found having 'stuck to his guard to the last'.  McCabe = McCaffery.  Old Soldier knows something that the rest of only know from Daly's letter.
As for Sergt Darkie Andrews ASC - I'm wondering if this isn't Lieut. George Andrews NNPC - and time has played tricks with Old Soldier's memory.  Do you know anything about Andrews's background in SA?  Was he a former Imperial sergt in the service of the colony, given a colonial commission?  Why 'Darkie'?  Might he have been mixed race or West Indian?  It's not impossible.
I'm trying hard with this Old Soldier but he's making it very difficult for me.  Any thoughts?
24th
He does and he doesn't.
Back to top Go down
impi

impi

Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 40

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jan 27, 2014 11:15 pm

Not getting involved 


Last edited by impi on Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:24 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Lee Stevenson



Posts : 54
Join date : 2013-10-29

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jan 27, 2014 11:35 pm

"...Sgt Bryant..." - Sgt G Bryant 1/3 NNC perhaps ????
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2329
Join date : 2011-09-12

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 8:43 am

Lee
Exactly! All these snippets show he had knowledge of the personalities and knew intimate details (if true) such that he might have been with the party that returned to Isandhlwana (or knew someone who had) but there's nothing that will establish his identity for certain or corroborate his actual presence at RD. A link between Australia and Wilson (or his real name) might do it.
'Darkie' Andrews is fascinating, I've never come across this epithet before in any account. I'm trying to find out about Lieut. Andrews NNPC at my end - so far without success.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7507
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 9:42 am

Julian, Lee
The Darkie Andrews seems to be a familiarity as Yankee Dan was. I fear it maybe a one of thing. This is an interesting man. The every where man.

Still looking.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2329
Join date : 2011-09-12

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 9:56 am

Hi
I agree but an epithet like 'Darkie' with the possible racial connotation would be an interesting one to pursue.  Why else nickname someone 'Darkie'?
You're right of course about the everywhere man - which worries me - a bit like Zabange who was everywhere at Isandhlwana and saw everything. The annoying thing is that his titbits of information which may be true (like Daniels being American) may become disregarded in the big lie of his overall picture.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7507
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 11:06 am

To try and put his stories into a contet:
He served with the NNC.
His rank was Sgnt major.
The places he has put himself: Sihayos kraal
The road to helpmakaar on the 22nd
The ponts during the afternoon
Between the two buildings during the fight.
Isandlwana with Black


He was working on the Hepmakaar road with the NNC when Durnford rode back (?) to the camp, at 9oclock, that's around an hour or so to late.
He had the Rocket Battery with him, not so Durnford had left to procure wagons and was fully mounted.
Some of the more glaring errors, the position of the tents, the day that Spalding left.
He saw Durnford leave the mission to ride to isandlwana, that would put him in very close proximity to the mission station.
He was at the ponts when Adendorff arrived ( this is a point he mentions Milne and 'Yankee Dan' ). I have a mental block just here as he describes Yankee Dan as a hard man. Its on record that Daniels was a very small man, possibly he would have mentioned this.
Chard statement:" I went round the position and then down to the ponts and brought up the guard of 1 sergeant and 6 men, wagons etc. No mention of NNC or their NCOs.
He states pretty emphatically that the natives bolted, with Stephenson from the road party. Not so they did in fact assist on building the barricades. They left after the mounted men had gone.
He mentions that the road to isandlwana runs straight and level for a view of 3 miles/5 kilometres. Not so Ive posted a photo taken from above the ponts, from there the view is restricted by the hill to around a kilometre. From the level of the river the view is half that.
He describes the layout of the camp at isandlwana but gets it completely wrong.
He puts himself with Black on the visit to the camp, mentioning the two smoke signals puts that as the first return in March. that patrol lead by Major Black had: 3 officers, Sergeant of the 24th, Cmd Cooper, 12 NNC officers and 10 mounted police with Dartnell.
That patrol never went further than the neck, spent 20 minutes then retired.
The descriptions around the men who left the camp and the reasons behind it are obviously here say. And is so highly detailed that a supposed failing memory shouldn't be able to recall
A possible clue to where he picked up information is that he mentions Captain Smith ( Major Smith RA) in connection with the guns and that they were spiked. There is another source that mentions spiked guns.
He has the Rocket battery bodies in the camp, pretty sure they were not located on that first trip, or the second.

Just some random thoughts to tinker with.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2329
Join date : 2011-09-12

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 11:40 am

Hi
All very true, Springbok! Some similarities to the faked Young account (spiked guns). On the other hand - Old soldier's accounts date from 1895/7 - so there will be errors of memory. It does sound to me like someone who was in the NNC, knew the men involved, or heard it second-hand, and had been at the Drift, but had not taken part in the things he describes. We shall see what emerges.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7507
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 11:52 am

Darkie Andrews:
Only three service corps men at iSandlwana. There is one possibly that escaped with Foley.
Again there was a Natal Native Pioneer Lt Andrews? He suvived and that's probably a very close shout.

Cheers

Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7507
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 11:58 am

Hi Julian
Sorry posts crossed there, theres to much hidden info there for it to be a complete fraud. The description of the road through the Bashee for instance. Im pretty convinced that at some point he was there, its just that selective memory that niggles away.
Im taking another tack and seeing if I can fully recreate that commentary from Newspaper articles.
And there I was fully convinced I was going to spend the day doing my tax returns !  No 

Cheers
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 12:08 pm

springbok9 wrote:

There is another source that mentions spiked guns.
.
 
Frank,
 
One another source:
Letter to his father (03/02/1879) by A.J. SECRETAN (trooper / NMP).
The 22 January, A.J. SECRETAN was with the column of CHELMFORD ("in the Mangeni").
His brother Francis Louis, also a trooper in the NMP was killed in action at Isandhlwana.
 
Sources:
-"The Standard" :25/03/1879
-"The Victorian soldier in Africa" by Edward H. SPIERS (extract of the letter?) / Ed: Manchester University Press 2004
-"1879 Zulu war Forum"; Tpr F.L. SECRETAN Natal Mtd Police 12/03/2012
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 12:18 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Darkie Andrews:
Again there was a Natal Native Pioneer  Lt Andrews? He suvived and that's probably a very close shout.

Cheers

 
From memory, no account let by Lt Andrews (NNP).
I don't have my copy of "England's sons" by Mister Julian Whybra at hand...
Cheers.

Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7507
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 12:26 pm

Hi Frederic
Secretan was one, but Im sure that there was a newspaper account that gave the same detail. Still looking.
Lt Andrews George Frederick, was wounded at Ulundi. No account left as you rightly say. Just looking for possibilities for 'Darkie',

Cheers
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 12:37 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Im sure that there was a newspaper account that gave the same detail. Still looking.
Cheers

Sorry Frank, but have you seen that the letter of Secretan had been published in the journal "The Standard"?
Cheers.

Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2329
Join date : 2011-09-12

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 12:59 pm

Do your tax return - it'll free your mind!
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7507
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 2:15 pm

Frederic
Thank you, do you have a copy, and/or could you give me a date it was published.
Julian
The government will only waste it/ steal it.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7507
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 2:28 pm

Frederic
Ive managed to locate it, really do need to sort out my filing system: The Standard March 25th 1879.

Interesting comparison with the Old Soldier: "The Gunners were stabbed to a man where they stood by their two guns, the Captain himself being shot whilst in the act of spiking the last one."

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2329
Join date : 2011-09-12

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 2:30 pm

Lieut. H. C. Young was the fraudulent account author who also wrote about Smith spiking the guns.  See The Echo, 24th February 1879, reproduced in at least one British newspaper (Leicester Mercury, 1st March 1879), several New Zealand and Australian papers, and an extract from which was used in Mackinnon and Shadbolt (although in it he is referred to as“Captain Young”); its content has also been quoted as if genuine in a 2011 popular history.  In fact he went on sick leave from the 3rd Regt., N.N.C. on 21st January 1879 and was seen in Sand Spruit, Natal that same afternoon.  His fictitious story was exposed by Lieut. Higginson, his adjutant, in a letter to the Natal Mercury, 16th May 1879.  This man is not to be confused with his brother, Lieut. L. D. Young, also of the 3rd Regt., N.N.C. who was killed in action at Isandhlwana.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7507
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 2:57 pm

Julian
The interesting thing about the Secretan letter/Old Soldier is the commonality of the 'Captain', phrase.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2329
Join date : 2011-09-12

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 3:24 pm

That's true - though Young and several others also talk about Captain Smith - is there anything else Secretan/Old Soldier have in coomon?
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7507
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 3:41 pm

I think the point Im trying to make is that through various newspaper articles Old Soldier could have put together quite a story, to pad out his local knowledge.
Time for the tax man.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2329
Join date : 2011-09-12

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 3:47 pm

I realize that and that's a good approach. I've found two Oz newspapers from 1879 March and April which carry Young's story as if genuine. I'll look for Secretan's letter down there too.
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 4:05 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
I realize that and that's a good approach.  I've found two Oz newspapers from 1879 March and April which carry Young's story as if genuine.  I'll look for Secretan's letter down there too.

Bonsoir Mister Whybra,

Please, what is "Oz"?
Sorry for this question.
I don't find this word in the dictionnary "english-french"( fluid????)
Bien cordialement

Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2329
Join date : 2011-09-12

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 5:13 pm

Frederic
It's an English colloquial short form, a term of endearment for 'Oz'tralia!
Back to top Go down
Chard1879

Chard1879

Posts : 1261
Join date : 2010-04-12

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 8:58 pm

Down under ! Australia !
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 9:01 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
Frederic
It's an English colloquial short form, a term of endearment for 'Oz'tralia!

Thank you Mister Whybra.
I just know "Aussie" (and "Anzac"/australia and New Zealand/ during the WWI).
Happy to read you again on this forum.
Kind regard

Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
90th

90th

Posts : 10089
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Who was the soldier at RD    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 9:26 pm

Hi All .
Just wishing to clarify that the Guns werent spiked , Smith as we are all aware was killed virtually overlooking the
the Buffalo . There is evidence supporting this fact from Smith - Dorrien , also a colonial possibly Macdonald or similar , was killed at the same time , along with S-D's horse ! , happy to be corrected . Also when one or more of the guns were recovered after and at Ulundi I'm certain those guns were not spiked according to reports .
90th  Salute 
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2329
Join date : 2011-09-12

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 10:15 pm

90th
You are correct.  That is why springbok and I have been agonizing over the Old Soldier accounts.  There's unverifiable magnificent detail in some places and big basic mistakes in what should be verifiable.  It makes the truth almost impossible to disentangle from hearsay, invention, second- or third-hand evidence, and self-preening remarks.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th

Posts : 10089
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Who was the soldier at RD    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 10:32 pm

Hi Julian
When this was first posted by Impi I think it was , last week , I said there were some errors and when I told him so he basically said
I was putting obstacles in the way of validifying the said post !. Glad to see you and Springbok have taken it a bit further .
From what I can gather as I said to Impi , that much of what the ' Old Soldier' has posted could easily be learnt by 1897 , especially if he had a grounding in the Army or was himself friends with those that may or were involved at RD .
90th
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

Posts : 2522
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 28, 2014 11:35 pm

Springy makes a good point about 'old soldier' putting together various newspaper articles to make a good story. And more or less what Gary (90th) says, he could also have taken note of gossip, tattle tattle, rumours, hearsay, etc, and if he had been out with LC and returned to RD with him, he would no doubt have gained some knowledge of the battle from those who were actually there.
Back to top Go down
Lee Stevenson



Posts : 54
Join date : 2013-10-29

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 29, 2014 12:13 am

It is perhaps interesting to note that "Old Soldier," (Evening News 27/4/1895), does not actually say he was one of the defenders of Rorke's Drift, and he could be seen to be simply telling a story of the battle, much the same as his later tales of the Boer War. Only in the last paragraph does he state that "...I accompanied Major Black to look for the missing colour..."

A significant point to remember in the 1895 account, bearing in mind 'Old Soldier's other articles which suggest that he had been a former NCO in the REs, is the reference to, "Yankee Dan, a very hard working old man and a N.C.O. of Lonsdales Native Contingent, who had formerly served in the Royal Engineers and was supervising a road making party..."

The more detailed Melbourne Argus account by "An old soldier," (c. 1897), however states "...I had been left behind to assist Lieutenant Chard in looking after a road making party, through having formerly served in the Royal Engineers...," and clearly has the author as a very active participant in the defence.

Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2329
Join date : 2011-09-12

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 29, 2014 10:02 am

Broadly speaking yes. I think springbok would agree with me that Old soldier is a combination of truth, lies, hearsay from a variety of sources (not excluding the possibility that he had been in SA and even been at RD post eventum). Overall it doesn't look as though the accounts are genuine but that doesn't mean that SOME of the content isn't genuine (because he may have obtained it first hand). For example, if another source could be found that proved Daniels was an American, then that would corroborate that particular part (but not all) of Old Soldier's account. But as it stands, it's all just impossible to verify.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7507
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 29, 2014 12:48 pm

I think that just about sums it up.
I personaly believe he was there, after the battle. I don't think he was part of Chelmsfords column, if he was he would have had the perfect opportunity to speak with authority on the battlefield that evening. There are just to many variances with fact to give the benefit of the doubt and put it down to memory loss and advanced years. Not all, just a few key areas. But the fact he weaves some personal tit bits into his narratives still leaves that slight lingering doubt. So definitely an Irishman that's kissed the Blarney Stone.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2329
Join date : 2011-09-12

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 29, 2014 3:23 pm

Or it's such a whopper that he's an Aussie who's kissed Ayers Rock!!
Back to top Go down
ADMIN

ADMIN

Posts : 3923
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 61
Location : KENT

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 30, 2014 9:01 pm

Back on topic!
Back to top Go down
https://www.1879zuluwar.com
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7507
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 31, 2014 7:45 am

What information is available about a draftee from Helpmakaar 25B/280 James Probert, his younger brother was with the 2/24th he is Lewis Probert 25b?1586.

Just trawling
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2329
Join date : 2011-09-12

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 31, 2014 9:31 am

Admin
Wise decision.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th

Posts : 10089
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Who was the soldier at RD    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 01, 2014 12:54 am

Hi Springy .
In ' The Noble 24th ' there is a James Probert 25B /280 1 /24th Pte , Enlisted at Brecon 13 /6 /74 ; Age 24 yrs . Transferred to Army Reserve prior to 16 / 11 /80 , South Africa Medal with Clasp 1879 . There are two other ' Probert's in the 2/ 24th ;
John Henry Probert 25B / 822 Pte , and as you mentioned Lewis Probert 25B / 1586 . If you want the info on them from Holme's work let me know . Lewis Probert has a letter published in Emery's ' The Red Soldier ' .
Cheers 90th  You need to study mo 
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7507
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 01, 2014 4:10 am

Thanks 90th
Ive got all the basics, hoping someone can come up with where he died, is buried, lived after the war. Still chasing 'The Old Soldier"

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Kenny



Posts : 397
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 01, 2014 1:31 pm

I thought all you AZW experts knew that Lewis Probert was, after his discharge from the army, a Police Constable in Brecon and died there in 1905.

25B/822 John Henry Probert married Harriett Elizabeth Orlopp in Brecon in 1882. She was the daughter of QM Adam Orlopp - and sister of 25B/2 Dmr John Orlopp 1/24th - killed at Isandlwana.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 01, 2014 3:01 pm

kenny  Salute and how long has this information
been in the public domain? donkeys years..i can
only cite two ' experts ' who i have the utmost
confidence in! some of us have been studying the
AZW for thirty years or more, before the advent of
tim berners-lee's epoch changing invention ( up
there with the wheel, and the industrial revolution )
a most gratifying tool! which means we can now share
information at the speed of light..amazing,stupendous,
but! i feel some people are to quick to post in general
taking what they see on line as gospel. then there are
the self styled experts  Very Happy  Hmmm...
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7507
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 01, 2014 3:40 pm

Kenny
Thank you: The question was however about James, now do you know where he died and is buried?

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Kenny



Posts : 397
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 01, 2014 5:46 pm

Nothing has been found on 25B/280 James Probert after he left the army in 1880 other than he was trained as a blacksmith.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7507
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 01, 2014 6:43 pm

Hi Kenny
He trained as a Blacksmith before joining the army. He was in the Draft to make up the 1/24th sent down from Helpmakaar. Lewis was at the time stationed at RD having been in Chelmsfords column. This puts him in an interesting position, knowledge of RD, stories of isandlwana from Lewis, and the potential that being a blacksmith he could have been called on to help the sappers at the ponts. All circumstantial at present but interesting to follow up.
Not bad for an 'AZW' expert' huh ?
 Rolling Eyes 
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 01, 2014 9:05 pm

He wasn't too happy!

"Lance-Corporal Lewis Probert of G-Company 2/24th wrote to his family in early February, ‘we have been since the 22 January without pulling off our clothes, and we have no tents, and only one blanket and sleep in the open with our belts on."
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty

Back to top Go down
 
Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.
Back to top 
Page 2 of 2Go to page : Previous  1, 2

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: ZULU WAR PUBLICATIONS & REVIEWS-
Jump to: