Durnford was he capable.2

Durnford, Pulleine, Chelsmford, Dartnell, Crealock all did something, no matter how small, that helped make the camp fall, none of them are innocent and it can be debated to death.



Cheers

Why don't you include all the other officers present!!!

Bit unfair, i don't realy think the likes of Lt Dyer or Captain Btadstreet did anything wrong.



Cheers

Have to agree with that.

When's Julian's book available.

If they couldn't see, that they were being sent to far from the camp with no chance of getting a good supply of ammunition to sustain their positions, than as far as I'm concerned hey we're no better than those giving the orders. It's apparent that there were many last stands away from the camp, primary problem no ammuntion.

Ulundi. Sorry mate just read you post regarding Julian's book.

Very soon I think. He hasn't been on for a while, so I'm guessing he writing his book.

littlehand wrote:

If they couldn't see, that they were being sent to far from the camp with no chance of getting a good supply of ammunition to sustain their positions, than as far as I'm concerned hey we're no better than those giving the orders. It's apparent that there were many last stands away from the camp, primary problem no ammuntion.

That was Chelmsfords orders to send them so far away from the camp !


Cheers

Show me?

I'm off to bed, up early tomorrow. Will leave you with this?

"Colonel Pulleine, 24th Regiment, to the following effect:—"

Quote :

You will be in command of the camp during the absence of Colonel Glyn; draw in (I speak- from memory) your camp, or your line of defence"—I am not certain which-"while the force is out: also draw in the line of your infantry outposts accordingly; but keep your cavalry vedettes still far advanced."

Please don't post standing orders prior to the issue of the order above. The order above, is the one that was issued on the day..

Quote :

If they couldn't see, that they were being sent to far from the camp with no chance of getting a good supply of ammunition to sustain their positions, than as far as I'm concerned hey we're no better than those giving the orders. It's apparent that there were many last stands away from the camp, primary problem no ammuntion.

Good point, when you consider they were harden seasoned soldiers. You would have thougt they would have taken ammo boxes with them, if they didn't use them bring them back.

Posted by LH.

"

Quote :

Durnford's rank of Lieutenant Colonel was in a colonial force, which did not give him seniority over Pulleine, who was a Brevet Lieutenant Colonel in a regular unit.

Can anyone show this to be either correct or in-correct. But that I don't mean saying it's Correct or In-correct if you can't show it as a source or document.

Ray 63

Durnford was a Royal Engineer officer. You can get confirmation of his rank from any of the Army Lists published at the time.

Bill

Littlehand .
In reply to your post of today at 6.45 am . Pulleine's first message ; '' Staff Officer - Report just came in that the zulus are advancing in force from left front of the camp , 8.5 am. It was on this message that Cford sent Milne to observe the camp , which he did for an hour or so . At this stage Pulleine hadnt received the message to strike the camp , so if Pulleine did think he was to be attacked he possibly could've tried to strike the tents , in that way , there would be no confusion about the tents being struck , because as I said , Pulleine hadnt been given the order to strike the camp before Milne was surveying the camp !. In fact the order asking Pulleine to strike the camp was sent after Milne's observations . The order asking Pulleine to strike the camp was taken by Gardner , and as we know when Gardner got to the camp he could see it was an order which couldnt be acted upon . Pulleine failed to understand the calamity that was about to befall him , hence his reluctance to take any steps to alleviate the situation.
Cheers 90th.

90th. What time was Milne asked to ascend the hill to observe the camp. I can't see any time apart from the Order time.

Good point 90th. Pulleine had not yet received the order to strike camp from Chelmsford, so if Pulleine had ordered them dropped early on, and then Milne had seen this, he would have reported this to LC, who just might have twigged that something was wrong back at the camp, so Pulleine should have had the tents dropped.

Durnford was a Brevet Colonel, Pulleine was a Brevet Lt Colonel, Durnford outranked Pulleine, and because of this, when he arrived at the camp he became the senior officer, and therefor 'technically' in command. However, he told Pulleine that he had no intention of staying at the camp (he had his own orders of the 19th), he was to form part of a pincer movement with Bengough (horns), to try to force the Matyanas to move towards LC, who was to be the centre (chest). But when LC moved off to assist Dartnell, he failed to leave any orders with Pulleine to give to Durnford, so as far as Durnford was concerned, he was still to follow LC and take part along with Bengough in the action against the Matyanas.

On his way to the camp, Durnford was told by Chard that zulus were around the camp area, so when he arrived at the camp, Durnford was surprised that Pulleine appeared to have done very little about the situation. Durnford sent his own men to scout and recce the area to try to get some better info, and that is when the report came in about zulus heading in LC's direction, Durnford had no other option but to try to find out where they were going.

In the short time that Durnford was at the camp, it would have been assumed by others that with him being the senior officer he would have taken command, which would "technically" be correct, however, if Durnford had taken command, why then did he have to ask Pulleine for the loan of 2 coys of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment? if he had taken over command, he would not have needed to ask, he could have ordered it.

Hi Sas .
I wont be able to check any books for a day or so as I'm not home . I do seem to remember that the message was stamped by
Henry Hallam Parr about 9.40 - 10.00 , this was when Milne was sent to observe the camp which he did for nearly an hour . The attack hadnt started in earnest at this time while Milne was watching the camp .
Cheers 90th.

Those responsible are those who were present ... And Dartnell , it flows from source ...

Time-Line originally posted by POT

At 8:05am Colonel Pulleine sent a message that Zulus had been observed near the camp.

At 9:30am Pulleine’s message was received by Colonel Glyn.

Around 9:40am Chelmsford sent Lieutenant Milne at once to the top of 600 foot high hill, Silutshana, from which the camp could be seen 12 mile distant. Milne remained there for at least an hour with a very powerful telescope, but could detect nothing unusual in the camp. The tents of the camp appeared to be standing, and it looked like the cattle had been brought in.

About 10:30am Colonol Durnford’s forces arrived at Isandlwana camp

By 11:00am Milne had descended the hill and made his report.

Around 11:30am Durnford left the camp.

By noon general fighting has broken out around the camp.

Around 12:30pm British forces begin falling back on the camp.

By 1:00pm the Zulu are in the camp, hand-to-hand fighting is taking place, and those who are able are fleeing the camp for fugitive’s drift.

Milne could not have mistaken the Zulu taking the camp, for the cattle being driven into camp, between 10:00 and 11:00am. Did he observe Durnford’s troops entering the camp, and mistake them for the cattle?

Post genial old historian2!

I love this kind of timing ! You are others ?...

But I thought the Zulus were seen en masse many time before 8:05 am ...

Cheers

Pascal

All those who believe that Durnford was to blame should put themselves in his place and see how well they do in this.

You have orders (along with Bengough), to assist LC in an action against the Matyanas. You and Bengough are to form a pincer type movement to force the zulus towards LC who is waiting to engage them, you are told that you will receive further instructions about this later. You then receive instructions to move up to the camp at iSandlwana, but there are no further instructions regarding the action against the Matyanas, however, LC should have left these instructions waiting for you at the camp. On your way to the camp you meet Chard who tells you that there have been a number of reports of zulus seen around the camp area, but when you arrive at the camp you see that Pulleine has done very little about the situation, and there are no further instructions waiting for you from LC, so now you are in a rather odd situation. Pulleine is in command of the camp, you are in command of your own independant No2 column, you have orders to support LC in the action against the Matyanas, there are no further orders at the camp that countermand these orders, so you have to obey the orders you received on the 19th. But you can see that Pulleine has done very little about the reported zulu activity around the camp, so you try to get a better perspective of the situation, and send some of your own men to recce the area. You now get a report that zulus are heading in the direction of LC, your orders are to assist LC, so you have to find out what these zulus are up to, and if necessary, try to stop them from outflanking, cutting off or attacking LC. What are you going to do?

Hi Martin,
A splendid overview of the situation, the operative words being SUPPORT/ MATANYA.
You are one of the few who see the situation as it was. Neither Durnford, nor Dartnell have any charges to answer, as they were both obeying orders. Dartnells orders were to seek out the enemy and harry them.

regards,

barry

PS ; the title of this thread is a dead horse too, capabiilty had nothing to do with obeying orders.

Hi Mr M. Cooper

Just having been made ​​aware of the situation by Pulleine ...

And all this, as soon as possible ...

I let my battery of rocket launchers and my infantry in the camps for Pulleine and Asks him to mount a defensive position closer to the camps.

Then I send a message to the genial LC (who has never lost a battle in his life) to tell him what is happening in the camps and what I ordered at Pulleine.

Then I joined the genial LC (who has never lost a battle in his life) with all the mounted troops available in the camps grouped into a single mass ...

Cheers

Pascal

Yes, I am writing my book...
Good discussion.
Pascal - but your scenario is based on the fact that Durnford KNEW the main impi was on the plateau. He didn't. He was TOLD that the main impi was facing Chelmsford on the Mangeni. A lot hinges on this.
CTSG and others - for information - Durnford DID try to contact Chelmsford from Isandhlwana. Two mounted NNH natives were sent with a message to Chelmsford.

Quote :

I love this kind of timing ! You are others ?...
But I thought the Zulus were seen en masse many time before 8:05 am ...

Pascal the timeline was posted to enable those debating, to establish what time Milne was sent to observe the camp.

well no Julian! If I leave orders of deployment to Pulleine, it is because i know que le Zulu army was on the shelves.

And this is why I left the camps as soon as possible with all the mounted troops ...

Cheers


Pascal

If I read your post correctly, Pascal, that's not quite right. Pulleine's orders were general ones to be adopted if the camp were attacked (and these were written by Clery not Chelmsford). Chelmsford was convinced that the main impi lay on the Mangeni.
(ADMIN: I've put this in French so that he understands my response clearly).
Si je lis vos mots comme je pense, cette scene n'etait pas exactement comme tu as decrit. Les ordres de Pulleine (ecrit par Clery, pas Chelmsford) ont decrit la formation on peut faire si les Zoulous faisaient une sortie. Chelmsford etait convaincu que l'impi principal restait dans le gorge de Mangeni.

90th it was not necessary to send orders to strike the tents, it was common practice as laid down in standing orders. There were two senior officers present at Isandlwana; none of them had the foresight to drop the tents, the fact that no one made any effort to strike the tents tells us that those two officers had their own agenda. We also need to make it clear that Gardner’s message wasn’t to tell Pulliene to pack up camp.

Julian

And Durnford, after all of the reports provided by Pulleine he thought the Zulus were ... Where? On the French Riviera ?

Cheers

Pascal

Quote :

Durnford was a Brevet Colonel, Pulleine was a Brevet Lt Colonel, Durnford outranked Pulleine, and because of this, when he arrived at the camp he became the senior officer, and therefor 'technically' in command. However, he told Pulleine that he had no intention of staying at the camp (he had his own orders of the 19th), he was to form part of a pincer movement with Bengough (horns), to try to force the Matyanas to move towards LC, who was to be the centre (chest). But when LC moved off to assist Dartnell, he failed to leave any orders with Pulleine to give to Durnford, so as far as Durnford was concerned, he was still to follow LC and take part along with Bengough in the action against the Matyanas.

Martin, Durnford and Pulliene both held the rank of lieutenant-colonel and by an advantage of his being an engineer as opposed to a mere infantryman, Durnford was theoretically senior. But he had been promoted into a colonial unit, even though he was a regular officer - and colonials were not accepted by the regulars as senior regardless of their rank.

Martin you can't seem to move beyond the 19th Jan for some reason. If as you say he was bound by the orders received on the 19th, why on earth did he take command of Isandlwana, he knew Pulliene had his own orders to defend the camp. And why did he go to Isandlwana.

Yes but Durnford is not a colonial ...

Quote :

We also need to make it clear that Gardner’s message wasn’t to tell Pulliene to pack up camp

LH. I'm confused?

What was in the message that "Gardner" delivered to Pulliene, if it wasn't to pack up camp. I have always thought this to be the case?

Pulleine was to send on the camp equipment and supplies of the troops camping out, and to remain himself at his present camp, and entrench it.

so was it intended, that Chelmsford planned to return to Isandlwana after supporting Dartnell?

Oh yes LH and when Pulleine had to leave the camps ?

littlehand wrote:

Pulleine was to send on the camp equipment and supplies of the troops camping out, and to remain himself at his present camp, and entrench it.

LH

I'm pretty sure we won't know the answer to this, as the 2 people that heard the message both said diffrent things.




Cheers

Quote :

I'm pretty sure we won't know the answer to this, as the 2 people that heard the message both said diffrent things.

DB, who were the two you speak of. And what do they say they heard.

I think it was Gardner and Brickhill, one said the order was to send the whole camp the other said it was
an order to send part of the camp.



Cheers

DB. Four heard the order read aloud by Pulliene. That was Gardner, Brickhill, Stepstone, and one other.
Brickhill states. " Strike camp and come with all speed, leaving sufficient guard to protect such as can not be moved without delay"

The order I posted eariler come's from Gardner's account stated at the court of enquiry. I would give him the benifit of the doubt as he was the one that delivered it. There was a lot going on and Brickhill had been at Isandlwana from the start, so most likly was somewhat confused and frighten. But either way part of the camp was to remain.

Pascal
From what was written afterwards it seems that Pulleine/Dunrford thought that there were a smaller number of Zulus on the plateau than was the case - a skirmishing party, a group en route to the main impi - in short they weren't sure what was up there but they were certain that the main impi lay on the track ahead because Chelmsford had gone off to attack it and he hadn't disabused Pulleine/Durnford of the fact that it was not there.
Only when Gardner returns do they realize that the impi is not on the Mangeni, and simultaneously, as Shepstone blurts out what he's seen do they realize that it might be on the plateau.
LHand
I don't think it was ever the intention to entrench at Isandhlwana. They all knew they were to move on at some point. That's why the details were left behind: to pack up the camp.

Ben here Julian, that 's why Pulleine snoozing all the morning ...

For Pulleine and Durnford, the zulu mass is for the undefeated and invincible LC...

Quote :

LH. I don't think it was ever the intention to entrench at Isandhlwana. They all knew they were to move on at some point. That's why the details were left behind: to pack up the camp.

I did read somewhere, and been looking for it ever since, that Chelmsford had not anticipated that Durnford who would most likly be moving at walking speed from RD would arrive at the camp so soon and assumed that he would be back in camp before his arrival and could give specific orders then.

Wether this s true or not I know not!! But it would fit in with what Gardner states at the enquiry.

Send equipment for those camping out, but have the camp In readiness for their return. Could Chelmsford have been thinking of possible repercussion in the event they had engaged and beaten the main Impi as reported by Dartnell.

Chelmsford's other intention in moving out to the Mangeni was to spy out the land for the next campsite. There was never any intention of going back to Isandhlwana. The whole focus was on moving forward to the next site.

So I guess he intended to move the camp up in two movements. Makes sense!

Did the Rocket Battery arrive the same time as Durnford when he arrived at Isandlwana..

John wrote:

Did the Rocket Battery arrive the same time as Durnford when he arrived at Isandlwana..

Nope it arrived just before Durnford sent Raw and Roberts to investigate the Zulus in the hills.



Cheers

LH.

You are wrong mate, Pulleine and Durnford did not hold the same rank of Lt Colonel.

Durnford got his brevet promotion to Colonel in December 1878, he was an imperial officer of the Royal Engineers, and although his column was mostly colonials, he himself was an imperial officer not a colonial officer, Pulleine was a brevet Lt Colonal, and Durnford outranked him, and with Durnford being the senior imperial officer, Pulleine and the rest of the junior officers at iSandlwana would have had no option other than to obey his orders had he given any.

The orders of the 19th are the crux of the matter, as these are the orders that Durnford had to adhere to, because LC had not issued any other orders to countermand them. He did not take command 'officially', but with him being the senior officer at the camp, he would have been only 'technically' in command, or if you like 'by default' as he was the senior officer. However, he told Pulleine that he would not interfere and would not be staying at the camp. The reason why he would not be staying at the camp is because he had the orders of the 19th telling him that he would be required to support LC in the action against the Matyanas. The orders of the 22nd instructed him to move up to the camp, and that is why he was at iSandlwana, not to take command, not to reinforce, and not to support Pulleine, but to be in readiness to support LC in the action against the Matyanas.

When he got to the camp he was surprised that Pulleine had done very little to find out about all the reports of zulus in the area, so he sent his own men to try to get some better information, and that is when the report came in about zulus heading towards LC, and his orders of the 19th were to support LC.

You are right though about what you say in your later post. I have also read somewhere that LC was surprised at Durnford getting to the camp so quickly, and maybe if LC expected to be back before Durnford arrived, then that is probably the reason why LC did not leave any further orders or instructions for Durnford at the camp, so therefor Durnford could only go off the orders he received on the 19th, and they were to support LC, not to play nursemaid to the inept Pulleine, who could and should have done a lot more than he did in all the time he had since the first report of zulus in the area, surely no one could expect Durnford to perform miracles in the very short time he was at the camp, Pulleine should have done it all long before Durnford arrived, but he failed miserably, and no one can blame Durnford.for that.

Many won't agreed but this chap has a right to his point of view. 132 years on many share it!!!!! provocative advance was exactly what it was.

Trooper Muirhead (Natal Carabineers) regarded Durnford as ‘the cause of all the disaster’ on account of his provocative advance at a time when the camp was not even protected by a laager of wagons.
Source:THE VICTORIAN SOLDIER IN AFRICA

Provocative advance????

The camp was not even protected by a laager of wagons????

Muirhead is entitled to his opinion yes, but what a load of rubbish, maybe he should be called Muttonhead rather than Muirhead.

Col Durnford was trying to find out what the reported zulus were up to, something that Pulleine should have done hours before Durnford arrived, and who's fault was it that the camp was not laagered? There's one thing for sure, it wasn't Durnford's.

Quote :

Muttonhead rather than Muirhead

:lol:

We have to remember, he was there so has every right to give his opinion. Perhaps he trying to say what we all feel. Waggon's could have been brought up, into some form of defence, ammuntion stations could have been set-up, which could have been done prior to Durnford leaving. After all with all the reports coming in, it wasn't rocket science, what did he expect to find. The Grenadier Guards.

90th wrote:

From what I've read those in command were hoping that the noise of the rockets traveling through the air would have a detrimental effect on the courage of the zulu warriors .
But in Hindsight we know that wasnt to be the case !. Allthough they only fired 2 or 3 from memory and were overcome quite quickly at the beginning of the battle .
90th