Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?

Last edited by tasker224 on Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

I still believe that the Zulu decided to bring the attack forward a day to the 22nd, once they had observed LC force leaving and hence, weakening the camp. (Raw's role but a red herring in the course of events).
The Zulu manouevrings reported by the scouts and vedettes on the morning of the 22nd were not minor preparatory movements for the following day, but the purposeful movements of large bodies on Zulu warriors into their starting line positions. This is well covered in TMFH and is difficult to deny.
Why would the Zulu army have needed another 24 hours? The fact that the Zulu amabutho were already on their appointed start lines by the morning of the 22nd January, is clearly evident and plainly borne out by what followed that very morning.

Last edited by Mr M. Cooper on Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

Hi tasker.

I can see your point on this, and it would seem possible that after seeing Chelmsford ride off in support of Dartnell, that the zulus would see that their opportunity to attack the camp had been handed to them on a plate. It could well be that some of the zulu leaders saw the chance and were keen to exploit it, while others could have been a little cautious about it. I seem to recall reading about a meeting between these leaders debating this very thing, but that not all the leaders were present at the time, but it would seem that the option of attacking the camp on the 22nd was under discussion.

Another good point you mention is why did the zulus start to get all the regiments formed up in their attack postions if they were not going to attack until the day after.

So it would appear that the zulus had indeed spotted their opportunity, and whilst carrying out their movements to get into their attack positions, Raw stumbled into them which caused some of them to attack, and this in turn caused a dominoe like effect on the rest of the zulu regiments which resulted in the whole zulu army attacking the camp.

You have a good point tasker, it would appear that the zulus had spotted their chance, and were indeed getting into position to attack the camp on the 22nd rather than the 23rd.

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Nice one Tasker, that's what happened. They seize the opertunity and it paid off.

The Zulu's were under the command of Ntshigwayo kaMahole.

Dabulamanzi KaMpande was the Commander of the Undi corps, who of course went on to RD.

Thanks for that LH, I have corrected the title of the thread Salute

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

There is still the fact of half around half a dozen Zulu accounts recorded by diffrent people over many years that
say diffrently.

Cheers

Hi Tasker .
I see what you are saying but Mehlokazulu and I think some others said the camp was to be attacked at dawn on the 23rd .
Martin said the zulu leaders or those that were present were discussing their plans this I've read as well . Did they decide to attack early because of the split force ...Possibly . I'm not sure I've read anywhere the zulus admitting this after they were interviewed after the war etc .
Cheers 90th.

Something tells me some of you have not read TMFH..

Mehlokazulu’s Second Interrogation Report:

He [referring to Cetshwayo] then gave Tsingwayo orders to use his own discretion and attack the English wherever he thought proper [Indicating clearly that Ntsingwayo was at liberty to attack as and when he thought fit] and if he beat them he was to cross the Buffalo River and advance on Pietermaritzburg, devastating the whole country and to return with the spoil. I caught up with the Zulu Army at the bottom of the Ngutu Mountains, about eight miles from Isandhlwana, where they had encamped. We learnt from our scouts that the English were encamped at Isandhlwana, but did not know that the army had been divided, as we did not send spies into their camp.

We need to know that Mehlokazulu was not himself privy to all the tactical information received by the Zulu battle commanders. He is also referring to the position of the amabutho by onset of darkness 21st January and not the very different situation that became clear on the early morning of the 22nd.
We slept that night at the above-mentioned place. In the morning Tsingwayo called me and said. ‘ Go with three other indunas and see what the English are doing.’

I called the indunas and started off at a good pace. We were all mounted. When we got to the range of hills looking on to Isandhlwana, we could see the English outposts [mounted men] quite close to us, and could also see the position of their camp. The outposts evidently saw us, for they commenced to move about, and there seemed to be a bustle in the camp, as some were inspanning the wagons, and others were getting in the oxen. We immediately went back, and I reported to our commander Tsingwayo, who said, ‘All right, we will see what they are going to do. I went away and had something to eat, as I had no food that morning. Presently I heard Tsingwayo give orders for the Tulwana and Ngyaza regiments to assemble. When they had done so he gave orders for the others to assemble and advance in the direction of the English camp. We were fired on first by the mounted men, who checked our advance for some little time.”

We all know that the Zulus were meant to attack on the 23rd and this is the date that will be burned into the minds of those Zulus who took part.
But between the hours of LC leaving and any initial manouevres beginning for an attack on the 22nd, how many Zulus would have been party to any information discussed at the meeting between KaMahole and his senior staff? I would suggest only the amabutho commanders.
Any snap decision to go early would not have needed to have been shared with anyone other than those who needed to know; the order givers.

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Tasker

Even if thye weren't in the meeting it would have become common knowlage after the decision was made, why
would the Zulu officers lie to there men about why they were forming up and advancing ?

Cheers

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:: Tasker

Even if thye weren't in the meeting it would have become common knowlage after the decision was made, why
would the Zulu officers lie to there men about why they were forming up and advancing ?

Cheers

No, I do not agree with your assumptions there at all, DB14. It is not a case of officers lying at all DB14, it is called "need to know."
I have personally "formed up and advanced" into hot situations on more occasions than I care to remember and have never been told until I needed to know; and even then, you don't always get told until the shjt starts to hit the fan and you figure it out for yourself!
I see no reason why the Zulu commanders would have needed to run around heralding nTshingwayo's latest thoughts and instructions to their men. It almost certainly wasn't the way things were done then and it certainly isn't the way things are done today!

Tasker you hit the nail on the head a while back. based on what Tsingwayo was told.

Quote :: Tsingwayo give orders for the Tulwana and Ngyaza regiments to assemble. When they had done so he gave orders for the others to assemble and advance in the direction of the English camp.

He saw the opertunity. And let's face it. He was a Brillient commander and he knew all to well he had the upper hand which as we know let to A Zulu Victory...

And Remember the Kings orders " Never attack a British fortification" he didn't and he knew that.

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But surely given the fact they were forming up and moving early the other Zulus would have twigged on.

Cheers

Probaly getting signals from indunas. They didn't need words to command...

It was said by Zulu Chiefs

"You gave us the battle that day … for you dispersed your army in small parties all over the country"

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Zulu's also said

Uguku (umCijo Regt):
"It was our intention to have rested for a day in the valley where we arrived the night before the battle."

Mhoti (umCijo)
"The Zulus did not intend to fight that day at all only some mounted natives from the camp rode up the mountain on which we stood and opened fire and the battle began."

A warrior of the uNokhenke regiment
"On the morning of the 22nd of January there was no intention whatever of making an attack...and we were sitting resting when firing was heard on our right, which we at first imagined was the iNgobamakhosi engaged. We armed and we armed and ran forward in the direction of the sound. We were however soon told that it was the white troops fighting with Matyana's people fighting some ten miles way to our left front, and returned to our original position."

A Zulu officer
"No orders were given at all. It was not our day. Our day was the following one; We had not planned to attack on the day of the new moon. Our intention was to attack the camp the following day at dawn, but the English forces came to attack us first."

DB. They Probaly didn't intend on attacking the camp on the 22nd. But it's to much of coincidence regarding the amount of Zulu activity after the departure of Chelmsford. The opertunity was just to good to miss.

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:: Zulu's also said

Uguku (umCijo Regt):
"It was our intention to have rested for a day in the valley where we arrived the night before the battle."

Mhoti (umCijo)
"The Zulus did not intend to fight that day at all only some mounted natives from the camp rode up the mountain on which we stood and opened fire and the battle began."

A warrior of the uNokhenke regiment
"On the morning of the 22nd of January there was no intention whatever of making an attack...and we were sitting resting when firing was heard on our right, which we at first imagined was the iNgobamakhosi engaged. We armed and we armed and ran forward in the direction of the sound. We were however soon told that it was the white troops fighting with Matyana's people fighting some ten miles way to our left front, and returned to our original position."

A Zulu officer
"No orders were given at all. It was not our day. Our day was the following one; We had not planned to attack on the day of the new moon. Our intention was to attack the camp the following day at dawn, but the English forces came to attack us first."

Yes, yes, yes; but things changed.

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And it could account for what they wanted to do, but not what they did. These accounts could only have been said after the battle.

Lieutenant Charlie Pope, 2/24th witnessed the deployment taking place prior to Durnford’s arrival. This is primary source evidence. It reads:

"Alarm 3 Columns Zulus and mounted men on hill E. Turn Out 7,000 (!!!) more E.N.E., 4000 of whom went around Lion’s Kop. (Isandlwana Hill) Durnford’s Basutos arrive and pursue"

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

It was the most obvious move to make. A camp with half the original force, easy target.

Yes, it is all looking like the attack on the 22nd was an opportunity not to be missed. It may well not have been pre planned for the 22nd, but with things changing the way they did, it must have appeared to Ntshingwayo that this was a golden opportunity and one not be missed.

What I mean by the way things changing the way they did is as follows.

Dartnell had discovered a body of zulus whilst out on patrol, they kept drawing him on and then vanishing, he suspected that they were trying to lure him into a trap, so he decided not to return to the camp, but to stay out and try to keep an eye on them. The zulus had won the first round by keeping Dartnell away from the camp, they then lit lots of camp fires to give the impression that there were many more of them than there actually were. Dartnell took the bait and sent word to Chelmsford, who also took the bait (thinking that this was the main zulu army), and split his force to go to Dartnells aid and also try to bring the zulus to battle.

Now, with over half the force gone from the camp, and with Pulleine being so lax about things (even after numerous sightings and reports of zulus around the area), Ntshingwayo cannot beleive his luck, and sees his big chance to attack and destroy the vulnerable camp before anyone can do much about it.

That's about the size of it Martin.
In summary, the Imperial Army were totally outplayed by an army of "savages."

A great Zulu victory.

Not a "disaster" as the media machine have tried to portray it since 1879, in order to deny credit to where it was due.
Some people, even today, are still in denial.

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LH

The deployment you speak of, can you explain why they were deploying in plain sight of the camp,
only to retreat again ? Why would they come so far forward only to retreat again ?

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The most obvious answer would be, to direct the attenion to them, so the other Zulu regiments could deploy without harassment. A bit like the Zulus in Dartnell's location. Plus to confuse the British.

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:: LH

The deployment you speak of, can you explain why they were deploying in plain sight of the camp,
only to retreat again ? Why would they come so far forward only to retreat again ?

Why not, they were supremely confident that they were going to win as they massively outnumbered the camp defenders.
Also, this was to be the first battle; Cetshwayo was a clever politician and he would have wanted the Imperial forces to fire the first shots and hit first. That way, he would have righteousness on HIS side, as his army would then merely be defending themselves; Cetshwayo always maintained he wanted a peaceful solution before a military one.
Raw and his patrol opened the firing on the Zulus; this gave nThsingwayo the excuse he needed and was probably hoping for, to begin the attack.

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Tasker

It makes no sence ! Why would you send over 4,000 men forward alone, only to have them retreat again ?

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No matter what the reason was, it worked. They may have retreated but they soon returned. Did it change the out come of the Battle no!!!

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:: Tasker

It makes no sence ! Why would you send over 4,000 men forward alone, only to have them retreat again ?

You'd have to ask the Zulu commander. Tactics? Provoke a response?
You need to remember, that the Zulu warrior could cover miles and miles of ground extraorinarily quickly. It wasn't a problem to the Zulu DB14.

Posts : 249 Join date : 2013-06-01

tasker224 wrote:: I still believe that the Zulu decided to bring the attack forward a day to the 22nd, once they had observed LC force leaving and hence, weakening the camp. (Raw's role but a red herring in the course of events).
The Zulu manouevrings reported by the scouts and vedettes on the morning of the 22nd were not minor preparatory movements for the following day, but the purposeful movements of large bodies on Zulu warriors into their starting line positions. This is well covered in TMFH and is difficult to deny.
Why would the Zulu army have needed another 24 hours? The fact that the Zulu amabutho were already on their appointed start lines by the morning of the 22nd January, is clearly evident and plainly borne out by what followed that very morning.

Exatly right. agree

Just thought I'd spam this on to the correct thread.
I agree that the decision to bring the attack forward a day was deliberate and opportunistic on the part of the Zulu commanders.
And I have no faith in the ancient theory that Lt Raw and his patrol precipitated the attack, any more than I believe that James Blunt and his patrol prevented WW3.
For that read "let's take the credit away from the Zulus for spotting the opportunity, much better to think it was bad luck for the great white dopes and impetuous and indisciplined Zulus getting lucky."

Guest

kopie, see what you did there Surprised

resistance
is sure to follow, has this not been done to
death and back?. cheers xhosa

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It became deliberate, When Ntshigwayo kaMahole found out that the camp had been divided!
If Raw had stumble upon the Zulus, it was coincidental! The attack was going to happen anyway!

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Chard1879 wrote:: It became deliberate, When Ntshigwayo kaMahole found out that the camp had been divided!
If Raw had stumble upon the Zulus, it was coincidental! The attack was going to happen anyway!

Totally agree Chard:r;:

...and xhosa - not by me it hasn't!

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Ntshigwayo kaMahole was a Brillent commander. The opportunity presented its self. And he took it.

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Chard1879 wrote:: Ntshigwayo kaMahole was a Brillent commander. The opportunity presented its self. And he took it.

I think you are quite correct Chard. I also think the vast majority of people have had a hard time accepting that as fact over the past 134 years.

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kopie wrote:: I think you are quite correct Chard. I also think the vast majority of people have had a hard time accepting that as fact over the past 134 years.

They might have an easier time if you cited some evidence of such. Mehlokazulu claimed the Zulu did not even know that Chelmsford had left the camp. My question is what accounts claim that they did know and therefore took the decision to move the day of attack up?

DB14 has provided multiple that say they did not.

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"
They might have an easier time if you cited some evidence of such. Mehlokazulu claimed the Zulu did not even know that Chelmsford had left the camp. My question is what accounts claim that they did know and therefore took the decision to move the day of attack up?"

Click on link below, 2nd question and answer

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Thank you Impi. Salute

Quote :: Q, Did you see Lord Chelmsford's army leaving the camp on the day of the battle ?

A: No, We received reports of fire arms and we saw it when we returned

So, he's saying that shooting started the battle and they realized the split when they marched by Chelmsford's column returning that night.

Quote :: Q: What orders were given with respect to the attack ?

A: No orders were given at all. It was not our day. Our day was the following one; We had not planned to attack on the day of the new moon. Our intention was to attack the camp the following day at dawn, but the English forces came to attack us first.

Surely, if a decision was taken centrally to change the plan of attack some effort would have been made to disseminate it to Mehlokazulu's level, no?

Quote :: Q: Who attacked you first ?

A: The white and black mounted troops attacked us. The Zulu regiments were all hidden in the valley...

Note that Mehlokazulu does not mention any forward deployments before Raw & Co. stumbled upon them. Now I know the response is, "Well, he was just agreeing to what he was told to say," but that doesn't take into account the man's character. He died STILL fighting the British decades later.

Hi 6pdr .
I've always said the zulu didnt know LC had split the force as there has never been any evidence produced by the zulus to support that fact . I dont fall for the belief that they were all liars or scared of repercussions , especially with the likes Mehlokazulu who as I've said many times wasnt petrified of the British , he told it , as he saw and believed it . They had nothing to lose by telling the truth so they answered as truthfully as they could . The fact of the matter being they took a golden opportunity and seized it with both hands .
90th

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I think if you are to believe Mehlozazulu's statement word for word, then you have to believe all statements that were written in the aftermath of the battle, including all of those taken and made at the Court of Enquiry, all of those written by LC and his inner circle of cronies, in order to cover their backs and justify their actions.
Small point. Where is Ntshingwayo's statement? What does he say? Mehlokazulu was but one junior commander.
It is all too easy to ask for evidence or documentation, but as you know, the Zulus did not keep written records.
Now I don't know why Mehlokazulu "said" what he did in his statement, but if one can use just a tiny bit of imagination for a moment, or a little bit of common sense or free, unclouded thinking, surely one could come up with dozens of explanations as to why he would have wanted to mislead or collaborate with his British interrogators.
90th makes a very good point which IS valid, the lack of contemporary Zulu stories post the war; that is a fair point and it is a hole in the position I take. However, above all else and with so much more unknown than known about iSandlwana, before, during and after the battle, one has to forget for moment what you have read, all of which is based on what Chelmsford left for you to read, 134 years ago. And instead, use your imagination and use your common sense.
Do you REALLY think that 20,000 fit young alert men, with acute senses of sight and hearing did not see or hear several hundred men with horses and waggons leaving a large camp, which they were poised to attack? Now - Come on!

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kopie wrote:: Do you REALLY think that 20,000 fit young alert men, with acute senses of sight and hearing did not see or hear several hundred men with horses and waggons leaving a large camp, which they were poised to attack?

If they were down in a valley miles away? Yes.

Read this statement made by natives, and tell me, words hadn't been put into there mouths. Unbelieveable!

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6pdr wrote:

kopie wrote:: Do you REALLY think that 20,000 fit young alert men, with acute senses of sight and hearing did not see or hear several hundred men with horses and waggons leaving a large camp, which they were poised to attack?

If they were down in a valley miles away? Yes.

6pdr. I am sure you don't actually believe that!
The Zulus had scouts on the hills overlooking the camp.

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littlehand wrote:: Read this statement made by natives, and tell me, words hadn't been put into there mouths. Unbelieveable!

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Thanks for that link littlehand, hadn't read that thread before.
It backs up all what I have been banging on about this evening!
All the written evidence we have to read, is that provided for us, that was controlled, written, scrutinised and overseen by Lord Chelmsford himsef, 134 years ago. It would be easy to drag out all the old platitudes about "history being written by the winners" etc etc, so I won't.
As you said littlehand. In a word.
UNBELIEVABLE!

I just found it amusing that the Natives knew all the British officers my Name, what was said who went where, who did what, at what time. Very Happy

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littlehand wrote:: I just found it amusing that the Natives knew all the British officers my Name, what was said who went where, who did what, at what time.

Exactly, I see your point. Comical really.
But seriously; unbelievable.

I like to think of it as "Mr. Longeast's statement. As he told it to the natives, they just nodded yes! To everything!

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I expect the Adams Revolver had its part to play during theses interviews!
Can hear the cylinder spinning now!

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kopie wrote:: The Zulus had scouts on the hills overlooking the camp.

I would think so, yes. Scouts who apparently could not see or hear the departure of Chelmsford's splinter force...for whatever reason. You find that hard to believe. I find it just as difficult to believe you are utterly convinced it couldn't happen. Let's agree to disagree as neither of us can prove our belief beyond challenge.

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OK, let's agree to disagree.
There is more than enough evidence (one primary source Zulu commander, lots of circumstantial) that the Zulus were commencing the attack on the camp on the morning of the 22nd January in any case.
The original question is, were the attacks at iSandlwana and iNyezane on the 22nd January planned days in advance, or were they brought forward a day, by the opportunity that had presented itself, when Chelmsford split off from the main camp?
It seems to me that we have but ONE (but significant) piece of primary source evidence that indicates the Zulus were already advancing on the camp on the morning of the 22nd when Raw came upon them.
And that is Mehlokazulu's 2nd witness statement.

» Bring the remains home.
» End of the attack on Rorkes Drift.
» Another attack location other than Isandlwana.