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90th

90th

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PostSubject: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptyMon Jul 06, 2009 1:52 pm

hi all.

can anyone post a picture of what the general staff button would look like in near mint condition, as worn by sgt keane. i cant really make his out , due to being in the ground for 130 years !!. thanks in advance.

cheers 90th.
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John

John

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PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptyMon Jul 06, 2009 5:38 pm

90th I think there is a photo on the RDVC.. Web-site under the bones topic.
Posted by Coll.
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptyTue Jul 07, 2009 7:49 am

90th. I have a book on Military badges ect. I will have alook when I get a bit later.. You never know it just might be in there
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24th

24th

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PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptyTue Jul 07, 2009 10:33 pm

90th

Victorian Rifles Regiment Button

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The same if not similar. To the one found with remains.
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptySat Jul 11, 2009 10:55 am

90th Sorry mate, no luck with a photo of the Button.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: gen staff button   General Staff Button EmptySun Jul 12, 2009 8:23 am

hi littlehand.

thanks for searching the book, lets keep digging and see what turns up.

cheers 90th.
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ADMIN

ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptySun Jul 12, 2009 4:20 pm

Moved to General dicussion area.
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24th

24th

Posts : 1851
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PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptySun Jul 12, 2009 4:22 pm

Button no 7 however there is still no relevant information

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The one we are looking for is there but it just states Victorian military button.
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2nd Row from bottom, 2nd Button from the left

Victorian Rifles Regiment Button
Diam 24mm, domed
Description: Military ‘Victoria Rifles’ Button. Manufactured by Smith and Wright in Birmingham, Believed 1850-1880. Button is complete with loop. The shape is domed (about 10mm thick).
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptySun Jul 12, 2009 4:52 pm

Was this button just more really available at the time? We have some saying is the GSC. Others the Victorian Rifles, and now some saying the Royal Engineers.

To me, the Buttons we have be shown, are identical in everyway to the one found with the remains.
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old historian2

old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptyMon Jul 13, 2009 4:32 pm

I have been looking, and there is really no information on the GSC during the Zulu War. The fact the Button shows V.R would suggest that it is the Victorian Rifles.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: gen staff button   General Staff Button EmptyTue Jul 14, 2009 10:33 am

hi oh2.
The VR CYPHER on the button from the gen staff corps, stands for VICTORIA REGINA, nothing to do with VICTORIAN RIFLES.
hope this helps.

cheers90th.


Last edited by 90th on Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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ADMIN

ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptyTue Jul 14, 2009 1:36 pm

I have received some information that’s proves that the Button found with the remains at Isandlwana was NOT Royal Engineers.

This is why.
Royal Engineer Department 1837-1855 - there is no such thing as the Royal Engineer Department between those years. 1813 - 1856 the unit was The Corps of Royal Sappers & Miners. In 1856 to the present day they are the Corps of Royal Engineers.

From 1856 until 1901 Royal Engineers Button.
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Source: Zulu Historian.
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptyTue Jul 14, 2009 9:07 pm

OK Now we are getting somewhere. its not the Royal Engineers Button. Thats been proven.
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sas1

sas1

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PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptyMon Aug 10, 2009 11:32 am

Just out of interest. How many royal engineers were present during the Battle of Isandlwana.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: engineers at isandlwana.   General Staff Button EmptyMon Aug 10, 2009 1:37 pm

hi sas1

According to " CASUALTY ROLL FOR THE ZULU AND BASUTO WARS SOUTH AFRICA 1877-79, by I.T.TAVENDER
5TH COMP R.ENGINEERS

CORP. GAMBLE. W.

SAPPERS.

9132. CUTHBERT.H
13805. MCLAREN.J
12812. WHEATLEY. M

The only actual royal engineers present ,the four were all killed at isandlwana, i think they all left rorkes drift in the morning with chard
when he went to isandlwana to clarify his orders, he let them stay , he returned to rorkes drift, it played on his mind after the battle that
they were killed. Also lets not forget DURNFORD as he was in the engineers. John young"s ' THEY FELL LIKE STONES " also lists the
same people.
cheers 90th
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptyWed Sep 21, 2011 8:07 pm

Hi 90th in Zulu Victory it states that when Alan Gardner rode back to Isandlwana he was accompanied by Lieutenant McDougall of the Royal Engineers and Lieutenants Dyer and Griffiths 2/24th
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PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptyThu Sep 22, 2011 2:27 pm

Drummerboy. You’re a very inspirational young man. Extraordinary to find a youngster of your age walking his way through the a variety of discussions with such buoyancy. Keep it up.
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptyThu Sep 22, 2011 8:54 pm

Thanks i am really enjoying the forum i have read Zulu rising, The herosim and tragady of the zulu war 1879, Rorkes drift, and my favorite How can men die better but can you recomend anything else????
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PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptyThu Sep 22, 2011 10:11 pm

"History of the Zulu War and Its Origin By Frances E. Colenso, Edward Durnford" Wink
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptyFri Sep 23, 2011 2:08 am

Hi Drummerboy14.

This is an excellent book on the Eshowe Campaign ( Pearson ) .

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

You may find it cheaper with a more thorough search but these prices are good in any case .
cheers 90th.
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90th

90th

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Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptyFri Sep 23, 2011 2:50 pm

Hi All.
Some thoughts on the Button Issue kindly sent to me from a friend .

[url=The identification of the button as belonging to the Corps of General Staff is important because Colour-Sergeant M.C. Keane (on the staff of No. 3 Column) was the only man killed at Isandlwana belonging to this unit, and at the time the buttons and remains were found the press were keen (sorry!) to make the connection. Obviously, however, this identification becomes invalid if more than one man at Isandlwana might have worn that type of button. If three or four men might possibly have been wearing that type of button on the day, for example, the remains could be any one of them. This site - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - identifies the button as both Staff and 'Department of Engineers'. Now as has been pointed out, it's not entirely clear what is referred to by the designation 'Department of Engineers', and you certainly can't believe everything you read on the internet (sorry again!) but this is clearly a well-informed site and one would need to be sure that it is wrong in this respect, and that this type of button was never worn by the Engineers in any capacity, to rule out the remains as being Engineer casualties. The fact that it was not a current issue button is neither here nor there as quite a lot of obselete badges and equipment were probably in the camp that day. While Chard's Engineers had only recently arrived in Africa, and probably - only probably! - had the latest issue kit, we know for example that Col. Harness of N/5 Battery had specifically chosen not to issue new uniforms to his men while they were on the Eastern Cape Frontier because they would only get worn out in the bush. Over the years numbers of odd buttons have turned up on the battlefield, including American ones and a Metropolitan Police one - the most obvious explanation is simply 'make do and mend', and that odd bits of kit - and buttons - were pressed into service after the notoriously difficult conditions in the field had taken there toll. There was also a significant degree of recycling of obselete uniforms, notably amongs the auxiliary units. Some of the NNC were issued old uniforms, and the Natal Native Pioneers certainly were. It's impossible to say with any certainty what buttons were on their jackets - was this type of button worn simply because it was on some old jackets that were available to reissue? So there is at least the possibility that this type of button might have been worn by someone other than Col. Sgt. Keane which creates a significant margin of doubt when this is the only means used to identify him. On a seperate but connected issue, this single button was the apparently the only identifiable piece of uniform found with the remains. Generally, if a body is buried in uniform more than one metal item survives - several buttons, a collar badge or whatever. When this occurs it obviously makes identification more reliable. It is still possible that the button might be connected directly to the remains and that for some reason other insignia has been lost - perhaps, for example, the Zulus removed the jacket on the day, and one button fell off in the process, and stayed near the body. Or over the years the other buttons and insignia might have been exposed by the elements and either corroded or picked up by some passer-by. But, given the varying natures of the burials at Isandlwana it is also possible that the button is not directly connected to this set of human remains at all. A solitary button could have been torn off a fugitive during the flight or, more likely - especially if the burial was undertaken sometime after the battle (remember that at one point in 1880 troops 'cleaning up' the site walked over it collecting exposed bones and remains together in sacks) - it could have been 'scooped up' with the remains from an area nearby, and might not be directly connected to the body at all. It might even conceivably belong to some other body not yet discovered. The point is simply that at this stage it is not possible to say with 100% certainty that only the General Staff were wearing that button on the day, and equally that that single button was on the man when he was killed. So it remains a significant leap of faith to identify the remains as definately those of Col. Sgt. Keane]The identification of the button as belonging to the Corps of General Staff is important because Colour-Sergeant M.C. Keane (on the staff of No. 3 Column) was the only man killed at Isandlwana belonging to this unit, and at the time the buttons and remains were found the press were keen (sorry!) to make the connection. Obviously, however, this identification becomes invalid if more than one man at Isandlwana might have worn that type of button. If three or four men might possibly have been wearing that type of button on the day, for example, the remains could be any one of them. This site - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - identifies the button as both Staff and 'Department of Engineers'. Now as has been pointed out, it's not entirely clear what is referred to by the designation 'Department of Engineers', and you certainly can't believe everything you read on the internet (sorry again!) but this is clearly a well-informed site and one would need to be sure that it is wrong in this respect, and that this type of button was never worn by the Engineers in any capacity, to rule out the remains as being Engineer casualties. The fact that it was not a current issue button is neither here nor there as quite a lot of obselete badges and equipment were probably in the camp that day. While Chard's Engineers had only recently arrived in Africa, and probably - only probably! - had the latest issue kit, we know for example that Col. Harness of N/5 Battery had specifically chosen not to issue new uniforms to his men while they were on the Eastern Cape Frontier because they would only get worn out in the bush. Over the years numbers of odd buttons have turned up on the battlefield, including American ones and a Metropolitan Police one - the most obvious explanation is simply 'make do and mend', and that odd bits of kit - and buttons - were pressed into service after the notoriously difficult conditions in the field had taken there toll. There was also a significant degree of recycling of obselete uniforms, notably amongs the auxiliary units. Some of the NNC were issued old uniforms, and the Natal Native Pioneers certainly were. It's impossible to say with any certainty what buttons were on their jackets - was this type of button worn simply because it was on some old jackets that were available to reissue? So there is at least the possibility that this type of button might have been worn by someone other than Col. Sgt. Keane which creates a significant margin of doubt when this is the only means used to identify him. On a seperate but connected issue, this single button was the apparently the only identifiable piece of uniform found with the remains. Generally, if a body is buried in uniform more than one metal item survives - several buttons, a collar badge or whatever. When this occurs it obviously makes identification more reliable. It is still possible that the button might be connected directly to the remains and that for some reason other insignia has been lost - perhaps, for example, the Zulus removed the jacket on the day, and one button fell off in the process, and stayed near the body. Or over the years the other buttons and insignia might have been exposed by the elements and either corroded or picked up by some passer-by. But, given the varying natures of the burials at Isandlwana it is also possible that the button is not directly connected to this set of human remains at all. A solitary button could have been torn off a fugitive during the flight or, more likely - especially if the burial was undertaken sometime after the battle (remember that at one point in 1880 troops 'cleaning up' the site walked over it collecting exposed bones and remains together in sacks) - it could have been 'scooped up' with the remains from an area nearby, and might not be directly connected to the body at all. It might even conceivably belong to some other body not yet discovered. The point is simply that at this stage it is not possible to say with 100% certainty that only the General Staff were wearing that button on the day, and equally that that single button was on the man when he was killed. So it remains a significant leap of faith to identify the remains as definately those of Col. Sgt. Keane[/url]

cheers 90th. Idea
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   General Staff Button EmptySat Sep 24, 2011 10:00 pm

Thanks Elizabeth and 90th those are definatly going on the christmas list
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