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Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
 
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Cromwell

Cromwell

Posts : 27
Join date : 2013-07-28
Age : 58
Location : Northampton, England

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyWed Aug 21, 2013 6:24 pm

Kenny wrote:

Try:
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Fort Northampton is post-AZW - named after Northamptonshire Regt who were based there - the regiment was formed in 1881 from 48th Foot and 58th Foot.  Maybe this is why it is not included in the Field Guide.
Thanks Kenny that would explain it not being shown, I think the Northampton Regiment of Foot was originally formed in the English civil war on the Kings side.
For my sins I was a drummer boy in the Regiment in the Sealed knot (wore a fetching green uniform) then transferred to Prince Rupert's blue coats (no prizes for guessing the uniform colour).Very Happy 
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Cromwell

Cromwell

Posts : 27
Join date : 2013-07-28
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Location : Northampton, England

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyWed Aug 21, 2013 6:32 pm

springbok9 wrote:
It is highly possible that this would have been the site of the first camp in zululand after the crossing at RD, It makes logical sense that any encampment would have been used to protect the ponts
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This photo is taken from Fort Melvill looking out over the area where the ponts were operating. The line of trees from right to left is the location of Fort Northampton. So it is entirely possible that the camp would have been sited around about there.
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The ruins on the left are of Fort Melville in the middle distance is a rather large rondavel roof. That is RD Lodge and marks the original crossing point.

Cheers
Nice photos Spring, the river doesn't look that deep have you seen it in full flood and is the Melville rock still there.?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 22, 2013 8:03 am

Kenny
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I have the 6th Dragoons as being there  June 1884 untill September of the same year when the Northamptons arrrived.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 22, 2013 8:16 am

Cromwell
Ive never see it in full spate but at 'high tide' yes. There is so much conjecture about the rock and its location. My personal belief is that it was virtually on the Natal Bank, present purported photos show it as on the Zululand bank. There are so many very big rocks under that water it could have been anyone.
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Take your pick!

It really is that bad, im suprised that any horses managed to get across there at all, even with the water in full spate there are so many areas for broken legs.

If you read Brickhill carefully he mentions that he saw Melvill virtually out of the water. Combine that with a couple of other accounts about the proximity of Coghill and there becomes a case for all the action taking place adjacent to the Natal Bank.

Cheers
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Kenny



Posts : 396
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 22, 2013 8:17 am

Springbok

Many thanks for the correct date of death for Pte Thorne - have you been to the small cemetery on the Zululand side of river which it is believed contain the graves of the 24th soldiers who died of fever post battle of RD?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 22, 2013 8:27 am

Hi Kenny
Yes I have unfortunatly I dont have close up photos of it. There are, from memory around a dozen or so graves. Sat there one barmy summers evening with Charles from the hotel after a horse ride from isandlwana and enjoyed a bottle of ice cold chardonay.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 22, 2013 8:47 am

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The graves are in the small kopse on the slope down to the river.

Cheers
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Cromwell

Cromwell

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Location : Northampton, England

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 22, 2013 4:48 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Cromwell
Ive never see it in full spate but at 'high tide' yes. There is so much conjecture about the rock and its location. My personal belief is that it was virtually on the Natal Bank, present purported photos show it as on the Zululand bank. There are so many very big rocks under that water it could have been anyone.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Take your pick!

It really is that bad, im suprised that any horses managed to get across there at all, even with the water in full spate there are so many areas for broken legs.

If you read Brickhill carefully he mentions that he saw Melvill virtually out of the water. Combine that with a couple of other accounts about the proximity of Coghill and there becomes a case for all the action taking place adjacent to the Natal Bank.

Cheers
Wow I see what you mean, it would probably be easier to swim a horse over in full flood than try to ride it as it is in your photo. Most books make out that it is mid stream and clearly the only rock above the surface but I guess there are several that fit that description, you are so lucky to have seen all these iconic locations first hand so keep the Photos coming,agree
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Kenny



Posts : 396
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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 22, 2013 5:21 pm

Of course we shall never see the river as it was in 1879 - much of the flow is controlled - and water now used for domestic use and irrigation.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 23, 2013 7:34 am

Kenny
On occasion there are major floods in the area. The last one was I think when Hurricane Demoina hit around 1984, Jan the 24th I think.
I was in Natal at the time and nearly got swept of a bridge at Silutshane very close to isandlwana.
The Mzinyathi was really high then. I saw it at RD but couldnt get through to Fugitives Drift.
Cheers
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Chard1879

Chard1879

Posts : 1261
Join date : 2010-04-12

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 23, 2013 9:02 pm

Can we put a time to when the first of the Fugitives started to leave the Battlefield?
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Cromwell

Cromwell

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Location : Northampton, England

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 27, 2013 9:06 am

Chard1879 wrote:
Can we put a time to when the first of the Fugitives started to leave the Battlefield?
And further to Chards question I have just read that there was a fighting retreat by a mixed company of Red coats who got at least a mile and a half from the camp down the Fugitives trail before being overwhelmed.
Has any one got anymore detail as to what happened when the camp was overrun as I was under the impression no British foot Soldiers (on Foot) made it to the River and in fact didn't get
out of the camp.
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90th

90th

Posts : 10077
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Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Casualties    Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 27, 2013 9:32 am

Hi Cromwell .
The group of Red coats of whom you mention were commanded by Lt Edgar Oliphant Anstey , from memory about 60 bodies were found in a group . If you use the Search Box , type in Anstey or something similar , all previous posts should appear , there is much to read . Anstey was born here in Australia , South Australia to be exact , his parents were of course English.
His Brother , Thomas , actually surveyed and mapped the battlefield at Isandlwana later in 1879 . Edgar is one of only a couple of others who were laid to rest in England . All this will be answered hopefully in the search box , you will or may find it invaluable . You need to study mo 
Cheers 90th. Salute 
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 27, 2013 9:57 am

Cromwell
There were more bodies found from the neck to the Manzimyama stream than on the battlefield. The body of men you refer to is probably Lt Edgar Anstey of F company. His is the only 24th officers body to be removed from iSandlwana, he is buried in Woking. There are cairns right over the top of Mpethe ( thats the main hill on the fugitives trail) proving that there were soldiers who crossed the Manyimyama.
The beginning of the Fugitives trail
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The trail from the side of Blacks Koppie
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Look at the bottom left hand corner of this photo and you will see a small deer. Local wild life.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 27, 2013 9:58 am

Sorry 90th
Posts crossed.

Cheers
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Casualties ?    Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 27, 2013 10:06 am

Hi Springy .
No worries mate , more to the point did you enjoy the Deer ? . Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm comes to mind ! Very Happy 
Cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 27, 2013 10:09 am

Nice bit of Biltong. Surprised 
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Casualties ?    Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 27, 2013 10:13 am

Very Happy  Any left ? .
Cheers 90th. Salute 
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 27, 2013 10:20 am

AS you know Ive been to the battlefields many times, and thats only the second time I have seen wild life. Mind you Ive heard that Neils a bit of a wild thing after his first couple of Square Face. Very Happy 

Salute 
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Csaualties ?    Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 27, 2013 10:25 am

Funny ! , I heard the same thing Shocked LOL.
Cheers 90th.
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Cromwell

Cromwell

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Location : Northampton, England

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 27, 2013 1:06 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Cromwell
Ive never see it in full spate but at 'high tide' yes. There is so much conjecture about the rock and its location. My personal belief is that it was virtually on the Natal Bank, present purported photos show it as on the Zululand bank. There are so many very big rocks under that water it could have been anyone.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Take your pick!

It really is that bad, im suprised that any horses managed to get across there at all, even with the water in full spate there are so many areas for broken legs.

If you read Brickhill carefully he mentions that he saw Melvill virtually out of the water. Combine that with a couple of other accounts about the proximity of Coghill and there becomes a case for all the action taking place adjacent to the Natal Bank.



Cheers
What do you think to this being the "ROCK"Very Happy

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 27, 2013 1:44 pm

Hi Cromwell
Really your guess is as good as mine. But, and it is a big but, 130 years of floods hurricanes etc have moved those rocks all over the place. The first rock isnt there anymore, the second is and virtually buried. I am still of the opinion that 'the rock' was virtually on the Natal bank. Its highly possible that that second photo rock has been moved around and buried. Its also possible that it came down the valley itself. We will never ever know.
Have a look at these photos, The large rock on its own was sworn to be the original rock by a guide with a bunch of tourists that was there when I was. When he ws alone I asked him how he knew, his answer:" because its got paint on it". I remarked that I found that really interesting that Melvill actually had the foresight to carry paint with him on his journey, and that it was waterproof. Unfortunatly like a lot of my countrymen the defined art of humour is not very evident.
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Lots and lots of contenders.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Casualties ?   Casualties ? - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 27, 2013 1:59 pm

Ansteys last stand
28°21'53.34"S
30°38'10.88"E

Cheers
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