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 Sergeant's Chevrons

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SergioD

SergioD

Posts : 401
Join date : 2012-03-27
Age : 58
Location : London/Herts

Sergeant's Chevrons Empty
PostSubject: Sergeant's Chevrons   Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyWed Aug 07, 2013 11:04 am

Has anyone seen a colour picture or can describe the sergeant's stripes for a Sergeant in A Compant 2/24th and for the insignia that CSM Bourne would have worn on his sleeve . I am trying to finish a project and these are the missing pieces. I have seen many different illustrations but trying t work out what would be authentic,

Thanks

SergioD
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7750
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Sergeant's Chevrons   Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyWed Aug 07, 2013 11:15 am

Hi Sergio
Page 66 of the 'Big Silver Book' has exactly what you are looking for. If you dont have it let me know and I will try and scan it for you.

Cheers
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SergioD

SergioD

Posts : 401
Join date : 2012-03-27
Age : 58
Location : London/Herts

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PostSubject: Re: Sergeant's Chevrons   Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyWed Aug 07, 2013 11:20 am

Thanks Springbok - no I dont have the Big Silver book - unless it is under a different title. Would be grateful if you could scan an image.

Cheers

Sergio
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7750
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Sergeant's Chevrons   Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyWed Aug 07, 2013 11:26 am

Hi Sergio
Its actually 'Zulu" by Ian Knight, I think it was 90th christened it the Big Silver Book. Tsk typical Aussie.Very Happy 
I will do a scan for you later today.

Cheers
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SergioD

SergioD

Posts : 401
Join date : 2012-03-27
Age : 58
Location : London/Herts

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PostSubject: Re: Sergeant's Chevrons   Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyWed Aug 07, 2013 11:55 am

Thanks Springbok

Please be kind to 90th - I can only imagine how poor he and his compatriots must be feeling at the death of their sporting competitiveness .

Sergio:D 

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7750
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Sergeant's Chevrons   Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyWed Aug 07, 2013 12:02 pm

Ahem Shocked
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7750
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Sergeant's Chevrons   Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyWed Aug 07, 2013 4:25 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Hope that works Sergio
Photo from Zulu by Ian Knight
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7750
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Sergeant's Chevrons   Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyWed Aug 07, 2013 4:26 pm

Bugger, Ive even impressed myself.

Salute 
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SergioD

SergioD

Posts : 401
Join date : 2012-03-27
Age : 58
Location : London/Herts

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PostSubject: Re: Sergeant's Chevrons   Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyWed Aug 07, 2013 5:03 pm

Brilliant Thank you - interesting I thought that was a recruiting sergeants badge.

I think i can get hold of something similar which should work.

Thanks
- much appreciated

Sergio
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The1stLt

The1stLt

Posts : 285
Join date : 2010-09-06
Location : Kittery, Maine USA

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PostSubject: Re: Sergeant's Chevrons   Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyWed Aug 07, 2013 5:40 pm

Seigio this may also be of additional help..........The1stLt

http://www.amazon.com/British-Forces-Zululand-1879-Elite/dp/1855321092/ref=sr_1_1/181-2824980-2657714?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1375893243&sr=1-1&keywords=british+forces+in+zululand#reader_1855321092
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Kenny



Posts : 441
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

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PostSubject: Re: Sergeant's Chevrons   Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyWed Aug 07, 2013 6:56 pm

Sergio

The images show a Colour Sergeant's rank in 1879 (note the badges are on right arm only) - this was worn by Colour Sergeant Frank Bourne at RD. A sergeant's rank would be just the three gold chevrons only. Nigel Green in 'Zulu' was incorrectly dressed. Colour Sergeant was equivalent to modern day - Company Sergeant Major. The rank of CSM (WO2) was only introduced at the beginning of WW1.
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kwajimu1879

kwajimu1879

Posts : 420
Join date : 2011-05-14

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PostSubject: Re: Sergeant's Chevrons   Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyWed Aug 07, 2013 8:28 pm

Sergio,

Just to correct Kenny's posting.

Kenny wrote:
The images show a Colour Sergeant's rank in 1879 (note the badges are on right arm only) - this was worn by Colour Sergeant Frank Bourne at RD. A sergeant's rank would be just the three gold chevrons only.

When worn in five-button frock a Colour Sergeant's insignia of rank was three gold chevrons surmounted by a crown.  When wearing the seven-button tunic then the crossed flags would be worn.  So many illustrators manage to get this wrong!

I appreciate that you are asking about the 24th, and so as Kenny states Line Infantry Sergeants wore their chevrons on the right arm only, point down, above the elbow. There were exceptions, for example Light Infantry; Fusiliers & Highlanders where the chevrons were worn on both arms.

Kenny or Bill,

You might have to make a minor alteration to the figure in Zulu War Room.

Take a look at Frank Bourne in the well-known group photograph, or Colour Sergeant Ross in G Company in his company's group photograph.  No crossed flags.

I'll dig out the chapter & verse reference for you as soon as I find it.

I did post an image of Sergeants of the 21st R.S.F. for one Pascal's queries, but I can't access my Photobucket to bring it up again for you.

Regards,

'Jimu
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bill cainan



Posts : 225
Join date : 2011-09-19

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PostSubject: Re: Sergeant's Chevrons   Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyWed Aug 07, 2013 8:57 pm

Jimu

Yes, agree with you totally. I'll get round to correcting the mannequin in our AZW room one day soon - honest ! Mind you I have known quite a few Sergeant Majors who deliberately wear the wrong badge on some uniforms knowing full well no one will have the temerity to challenge them !!! Would you tell an RSM he's incorrectly dressed ? !!!!!

On another point - "Colour Sergeant" and "Warrant Officer 2" are RANKS, "Company Sergeant Major" is an APPOINTMENT. Even in today's army you would be surprised that there are people who are not aware of this distinction.

The exception to this in 1879 was the Regimental Sergeant Major who was known as The (THE) Sergeant Major - both a rank AND an appointment - literally the major (or senior) sergeant in the Battalion/Regiment. Today the RANK would be Warrant Officer 1, and the APPOINTMENT would be Regimental Sergeant Major.

Bill
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Guest
Guest



Sergeant's Chevrons Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant's Chevrons   Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 1:24 am

https://s1297.photobucket.com/user/xhosa2000/library/?sort=3&page=1
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Guest



Sergeant's Chevrons Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant's Chevrons   Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 1:27 am

Any body is free to look, download,
i will delete,in aprox 24hrs..
cheers xhosa2000
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90th

90th

Posts : 10267
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Sergeant's Chevrons    Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 7:36 am

Hi Springy .
As you are aware I'm a fan of '' The Big Silver Book '' . I think I may have christened it as such ! . It's very descriptive dont you think ? .
Hi Sergio .
I was very happy up until I heard the weather report for the 5th day at Old Trafford ! No  No .
I know this is off topic but easier to reply to the early
comments on the thread ! .
90th. Salute 
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Kenny



Posts : 441
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

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PostSubject: Re: Sergeant's Chevrons   Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 7:40 am

Serio,

As Jimu points out, this image posted by xhosa2000 is incorrect for the 5-button frock - no crossed flags (Colour badge) for Colour Sergeant - just crown above three gold chevrons.
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SergioD

SergioD

Posts : 401
Join date : 2012-03-27
Age : 58
Location : London/Herts

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PostSubject: Re: Sergeant's Chevrons   Sergeant's Chevrons EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 9:48 am

Thanks guys as usual your knowledge and willingness to share it is outstanding.


Any one know whgere I could source a suitable crown badge I assume it is embroidered. i have been able to source crossed flags with a QE2 badge but would like to get a Victorian crown for authenticty.

Thanks

Sergio

PS Would a CSM have worn a crimson sash with the five button coat or a cross belt - see the two different pictures on this thread
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