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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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 Bishop Colenso

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyMon Feb 03, 2014 5:13 am

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyMon Feb 03, 2014 11:58 am

Thanks for posting this Springbok. Very interesting  Don\'t agree  no wonder his daughters were confused. I guest his opinion of the two wife's is undesrtandable, considering Durnford had two women on the go.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyMon Feb 03, 2014 12:19 pm

CTSG
When I saw that in the on line news paper I just knew it would raise a comment from you. Had to do just for the hell of it.  Very Happy 

Cheers
 Salute 
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old historian2

old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyMon Feb 03, 2014 1:14 pm

Very Happy  it worked!
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6pdr

6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyMon Feb 03, 2014 7:14 pm

Worth remembering that Colenso was successful in making converts BECAUSE he tolerated the Zulu gradually adopting the tenets of Christianity into their theology. In contrast most of the missionaries failed to make any significant headway when they insisted on the instant karma approach. Whatever Rome made of their revolutionary bishop, his efforts certainly helped Natal and Britain. IMO the troops which fought most successfully at Isandlwana for the Queen and crown was the Edendale contingent of Durnford's Basutos...equipped as they were with quasi-corduroy uniforms, stirrups, and carbines.

Indeed, the Edendale contingent deserved a unit citation, Sgt. Kambula & Durnford the VC, and Colenso the thanks of a grateful nation.
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyMon Feb 03, 2014 10:38 pm

6pdr.

But the Edendale Troop were Wesleyans rather than Anglicans.

As to Rome's input into the Anglican Church, I think you'll find that was somewhat limited since the time of King Henry VIII.

John Y.
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6pdr

6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyTue Feb 04, 2014 12:23 am

Mr Young,

That would be the view from the eyes of the papacy, yes. But surely there is a bigger difference between the cosmologies of the Roman Catholics and pre-Christian Zulu than between Wesleyans and Anglicans...unless you were born a Tudor...and perhaps not even then, if your name was Elizabeth. A little dash of pragmatism -- choosing to live via media -- goes a long way toward the establishment of trust. That in essence was Bishop Colenso's approach -- and I would argue that it's palpably ENGLISH.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyTue Feb 04, 2014 5:53 pm

6pdr.,

Don't forget that Zululand was outside the Diocese of the Bishop of Natal. The Anglican Bishop of the Diocese of Zululand from 1870 was the Right Reverend Thomas Edward Wilkinson, a post he held for ten years. During his incumbency the Anglican Church only established three missions KwaMagwaza (1860); St. Paul's (1865) & St. Andrew's (1874).

As to iBuntu and Christianity I wouldn't say there too much of a difference, having seen them both at first hand.

With regard to the Colenso family, my last meeting with them took place a few short weeks ago within the confines of Lambeth Palace, the London residence of the Archbishop of Canterbury, the leader of the Anglican Church, the same church which deemed John William Colenso to be a heretic.

Returning to the Edendale Mission established by James Allison, his converts were not of Zulu stock but of Griqua, Rolong (Tswane), BaSotho, BaTlokwa, amaHlubi and amaSwazi origin, and although they lived within the Diocese of Natal they did not follow the Anglican Church.

For further recommended reading on Edendale please have a look at Pietermaritzburg 1838-1988: a new portrait of an African City, edited by John Laband and Robert Haswell (Pietermaritzburg: University of Natal Press and Shuter & Shooter, 1988).

John Y.
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6pdr

6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyTue Feb 04, 2014 8:31 pm

John Young wrote:


Don't forget that Zululand was outside the Diocese of the Bishop of Natal.  The Anglican Bishop of the Diocese of Zululand from 1870 was the Right Reverend Thomas Edward Wilkinson, a post he held for ten years.  During his incumbency the Anglican Church only established three missions KwaMagwaza (1860); St. Paul's (1865) & St. Andrew's (1874).

I can't forget what I didn't know -- thanks for setting me straight. Broadly speaking how does this relate to the Scandinavian ministries? And I guess there were Americans and other nationalities too. I am under the impression that none made much of an impact UNLESS they allowed a sort of hybrid approach that wouldn't inspire Cetshwayo's ire.

Quote :
As to iBuntu and Christianity I wouldn't say there too much of a difference, having seen them both at first hand.

 Shocked   scratch 

Quote :
With regard to the Colenso family, my last meeting with them took place a few short weeks ago within the confines of Lambeth Palace, the London residence of the Archbishop of Canterbury, the leader of the Anglican Church, the same church which deemed John William Colenso to be a heretic.

LOL. Game, set and match to you, sir! I have rarely been more roundly trumped. Theology is hardly my long suit -- I just assumed that ex-communication=Rome...without thinking that the missionaries weren't even Catholic.

Quote :
Returning to the Edendale Mission established by James Allison, his converts were not of Zulu stock but of Griqua, Rolong (Tswane), BaSotho, BaTlokwa, amaHlubi and amaSwazi origin, and although they lived within the Diocese of Natal they did not follow the Anglican Church.

I have a serious question for you. But would it be defensible to say that John William Colenso, by dint of his tolerance and research, would have contributed to an atmosphere at Edendale and environs, (or perhaps in the Diocese of Natal) that encouraged loyalty to the colony of Natal viz a viz prior affinities? Separate from the actual house of worship attended, I mean. Also, I was under the impression that he ran a school that some people of Zulu stock gained entrance to... This is not the case?

Quote :
For further recommended reading on Edendale please have a look at Pietermaritzburg 1838-1988: a new portrait of an African City, edited by John Laband and Robert Haswell (Pietermaritzburg: University of Natal Press and Shuter & Shooter, 1988).

I'll see if I can find it. Thanks for the recommendation.  Salute  -6pdr
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Bishop Colenso Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyWed Feb 05, 2014 12:07 am

and further reading might include the piece,
Bishop Colenso and the Zulu Nation by Ruth
Edgecombe. Journal of Natal and Zulu History.
vol 3 1980.  Salute 
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Bishop Colenso Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyWed Feb 05, 2014 5:25 pm

For further recommended reading on Edendale please have a look at Pietermaritzburg 1838-1988: a new portrait of an African City, edited by John Laband and Robert Haswell (Pietermaritzburg: University of Natal Press and Shuter & Shooter, 1988).

Hiya JY, i read a review of this many years ago, i suspect at the time of its release,
but dismissed it as a coffee table, do you recommend this as an addition,as part of
a rounded Africana library? does it go into depth.. i have Hattersley's portrait, but as
you know that's from 1951. btw it can be had on abe there's a few..cost. in the mid
20's, its not that..its the space!
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyWed Feb 05, 2014 6:41 pm

Les,

It brings to light fresher things that weren't spoken about in Hattersley's day.

Google Edendale and you'll get a taster.

6pdr.,

Don't forget after the events of 1869 there was a schism and William Kenneth Macrorie was appointed as Bishop of 'Maritzburg, on the advice of Robert Gray, the Bishop of Cape Town. Colenso's remit was not officially sanctioned by the Anglican Church. The High Court in Pietermaritzburg did rule against the church and Colenso was allowed certain rights and privileges. However, the city boasted two Anglican cathedrals, with two very different church families.

Yes he did teach to Zulus, including exiled members of the Zulu Royal House, the losers of the 1856 Civil War, but it was on a limited scale and confined to his house, Bishopstowe.

John Y.
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6pdr

6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyWed Feb 05, 2014 6:53 pm

John Young wrote:
Yes he did teach to Zulus, including exiled members of the Zulu Royal House, the losers of the 1856 Civil War, but it was on a limited scale and confined to his house, Bishopstowe.

WRT the Zulu students, royal or otherwise, how did that work?  My command of the geography is hazy but I am under the impression that Bishopstowe was not near the border of Zululand.  Did they live on the premisses or nearby while they were being schooled?

TIA,

- 6pdr

P.S. And where is Edendale in relation to Bishopstowe?
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PostSubject: Re: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyWed Feb 05, 2014 7:57 pm

Edendale, 1851-1930 - PMB Local History..its the full article!
from the book. in the Witness.. thank you.
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyWed Feb 05, 2014 7:59 pm

6pdr.,

The dispossessed Zulu including Princes Mkhungo and Sikhotha lived within the borders of Natal.  Both princes were schooled by Colenso at Ekukhunyeni - The Place of Light - at Bishopstowe.  Bishopstowe was about 6 miles to the east of PMB, whereas Edendale was about 9 or so miles outside of the city to the west.  As to where the two exiled princes stayed, personally I have no idea, and my link with the Prince Mkhungo's family was severed when my friend Prince Alpheus Zulu died in 2005.

The princes' uncle - their mother's brother - lived in Natal quite literally across the Mzinyathi River from kwaZulu.  His name was Sothondose, there was a crossing point - a drift - close to where he settled on the south bank of the Mzinyathi.  Apparently it was known as Sothondose's Drift, until the events of 22nd January 1879 caused the name to be changed to Fugitives' Drift.

It is alleged that Sothondose's band may have been involved in the deaths of fugitives on the Natal side of the river, cajoled with threats of violence into taking the action or suffer the same fate if they did not oblige.  Local Zulu oral history has it that it was Sothondose's men who killed Melvill and Coghill.

John Y.
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6pdr

6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyWed Feb 05, 2014 8:13 pm

John Young wrote:
The princes' uncle - their mother's brother - lived in Natal quite literally across the Mzinyathi River from kwaZulu.  His name was Sothondose, there was a crossing point - a drift - close to where he settled on the south bank of the Mzinyathi.  Apparently it was known as Sothondose's Drift, until the events of 22nd January 1879 caused the name to be changed to Fugitives' Drift.

It is alleged that Sothondose's band may have been involved in the deaths of fugitives on the Natal side of the river, cajoled with threats of violence into taking the action or suffer the same fate if they did not oblige.  Local Zulu oral history has it that it was Sothondose's men who killed Melvill and Coghill.

Yes, I visited the Fugitive's Drift Lodge so I am aware of the name change and the part that may have been played by Sothondose's people -- whether it was mere taunting or actual violence. Their guide of Zulu ancestry did not mention that in his tour, of course, but I had read it. And that's kind of the reason I am asking these questions. Mehlokazulu & Sihayo lived just on the other side of the Mzinyathi of course. I was wondering if it was theoretically possible for Mehlokazulu and Charlie Harford to have crossed one anothers' paths when they were young on the grounds of Bishopstowe. Their ages are about right...and they both had familiarity with Colenso. (I know Harford grew up in Pinetown however.)
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyWed Feb 05, 2014 10:32 pm

6pdr.,

I doubt very much if any sons of Sihayo visited Bishopstowe or attended Ekukhunyeni, given that Sihayo supported Prince Cetshwayo's uSuthu faction in the 1856 Civil War, whereas those who sought refuge in Natal favoured Prince Mbuyazi's defeated iziGqoza faction.

Bishop Colenso's motives for entertaining and educating his royal refugees may - I suggest - have had another motive. He was grooming his guests for a possible regime change in kwaZulu, thus securing a strong ally across the river who in turn might permit the Word to be spread amongst the amaZulu. For a view of such things closer to the time see Soldiers of the Cross in Zululand published in 1906.

Just my theory.

John Y.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Bishop Colenso   Bishop Colenso EmptyThu Feb 06, 2014 7:25 pm

"Soldiers Of The Cross In Zululand
Synopsis
This historic book may have numerous typos and missing text. Purchasers can download a free scanned copy of the original book (without typos) from the publisher. Not indexed. Not illustrated.1906 Excerpt: ... CHAPTER IX. THE VENTURE OF FAITH. The Three Journeys And Annesdale. March we forth in the strength of God, With the banner of Christ unfurled, That the light of the glorious Gospel of Truth May shine throughout the world. The Banner of the Cross was to be carried forward, on into the heathen land, for it was Mr. Robertson's hope to form some firm resting-place, some centre, whence further advances might be made into heathen Swaziland and Tongaland. These two kingdoms were still independent, though the Swazi king had given so many concessions to the Boers of the Transvaal that his territory and his powers were greatly reduced. Zululand had been formally annexed by England in 1897, and English magistracies had been established throughout the country; but though put under the Governor of Natal, it was still treated as a distinct country, and no white man could settle or hold land in it, except by special permission. Mr. Robertson, therefore, obtained leave from the English magistrate, as well as from the native chiefs, before settling on any spot. Many of his people at Etalaneni wished to take part in his project. These Zulu Christians know far more fully than we do what the yoke of heathenism means. We have grievous sins and shortcomings in us and around us, yet we live under God's law, we are members of His Church; with the heathen the ruling power is evil, and, beneath much that is excellent and noble, they have no strength sufficient to resist the Spirit of evil, who ever, seeks to debase and injure the human race. They know his tyrannical rule, and when they learn by experience that it can be overthrown by the power of Christ, they rejoice in their own deliverance from bondage, and desire to bring their fellow-countrymen into the glorious liberty."
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