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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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 Butler's Painting

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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptySat Mar 08, 2014 12:53 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


John Conolly identifed in painting!
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[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2127
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptySun May 11, 2014 5:06 pm

For a glance at Lady Butler's artwork can I recommend: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

John Y.
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Ulundi

Ulundi

Posts : 558
Join date : 2012-05-05

Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyMon May 12, 2014 8:57 am

John thanks for the link. Very interesting.
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

Posts : 2522
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyMon Jun 02, 2014 7:34 pm

Hi Les.

Great painting isn't it? agree 

What does she mean by "The Army's last stand at Rorke's Drift"?? What the hell is she talking about?? scratch 

And was there really any need for these two 'ladies' to turn this mini doc into a 'feminist thing'? Suspect 

Never mind mate, 'Nil illegitimi Carborundum'. Very Happy 

 Salute
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2127
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyMon Jun 02, 2014 7:44 pm

Martin,

As far as I'm aware the Defence of the Mission Station, near to Rorke's Drift, was something of a desperate last stand, please correct me if I wrong.

As to it being a feminist thing the whole series was entitled The Story of Women in Art which might give something of an inkling of the slant taken.

Regards,

John
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Guest
Guest



Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyMon Jun 02, 2014 8:08 pm

Martin i never do and never will!  Very Happy i worked for a
time at the carborundum plant in trafford park in
Manchester, god what a hell hole, i could'nt get
out of there quick enough..
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

Posts : 2522
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyMon Jun 02, 2014 8:09 pm

Hi John Y.

Ummm! Well, yes ok, I suppose that it could well have turned into a sort of last stand if the zulu's had won, but a company of men is not the army.

Right, I see, but the caption just says Lady Elizabeth Butler Rorke's Drift, no mention of the story of women in art, however, now knowing the series title, I can get the gist of the slant you mention.

Thanks John.  Salute 
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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Location : Lancashire, England.

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PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyMon Jun 02, 2014 8:18 pm

Hi Les.

I suppose that was the daily 'grind'  Very Happy 
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyMon Jun 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Martin

Did it take you 10 minutes to think of that? So far as the tv series is concerned you can quite see why women got the hump, given their treatment by the all male art establishment. Not allowed to work with male models because it might corrupt them, didn't work the other way around though!

Steve
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Posts : 2583
Join date : 2009-04-24

Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyMon Jun 02, 2014 8:32 pm

It the "Defence of Rorkes Drift" not the " Last Stand of Mission station near Rorkes Drift"  No 
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Guest
Guest



Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyMon Jun 02, 2014 8:41 pm


Hi Les.

I suppose that was the daily 'grind'

Hiya. think of lurch out of the adams family when
he shakes his head and makes that noise!  Very Happy 
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Ray63

Ray63

Posts : 708
Join date : 2012-05-05

Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyMon Jun 02, 2014 8:47 pm

Why don't you discuss this type of thing in the off topic section. This is the reason topics get locked down.
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

Posts : 2522
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

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PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyMon Jun 02, 2014 9:05 pm

No Steve not 10 min's. You see, I was writing my post to JY, then when I posted it I noticed that Les had posted previously, so I replied to him afterwards, which of course makes it look like it took me 10 min's.

I have never watched the series so I can't really comment about it, however, I do see what you are saying. But women of today have got the hump with the wrong men haven't they? They seem to blame the men of today for what they see as the mistakes of the men of yesterday, and it can get like a sort of vendetta when they vent their spleen on the men of today just because they can't vent it on those of yesterday. They are always up for having a dig at todays men, and even if you behave like a gentleman towards them and treat them like ladies, they will still bite your head off.

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Guest
Guest



Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyMon Jun 02, 2014 9:10 pm

"This is the reason topics get locked down". are you sure about that?
little asides can enrich the debate making it entertaining as well as
informative, as long as it gets back on track..
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

Posts : 2522
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyMon Jun 02, 2014 9:11 pm

Ray.

How long have you been a moderator?

If your not happy about people having some friendly chatting, why don't you ask Pete (Admin) to move it to the off topic section.
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2127
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Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyMon Jun 02, 2014 10:38 pm

CTSG,

CTSG wrote:
It the "Defence of Rorkes Drift" not the " Last Stand of Mission station near Rorkes Drift"

If that statement is in response to my posting read what I have written.

By-the-way the title of Lady Butler's artwork is The defence of Rorke's Drift, January 22nd, 1879, all spellings and punctuation as Lady Butler's catalogue of artwork.

John Y.
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2357
Join date : 2011-09-12

Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 9:23 am

Forum members might be interested to know that Connolly lived in the same street as David Jenkins, just a few doors down in fact, from the early 90s to his death in 1906 and was a member of the same United Services Club as Jenkins. Obviously this has import, since, as a known defender, he would have had ample opportunity to denounce anyone making false claims about being present at RD.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7580
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 9:28 am

Julian
You mean there is doubt on the forum?
Would never have guessed!

Cheers
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2357
Join date : 2011-09-12

Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 9:53 am

springbok
Well, it's just something else that I found out recently and thought I'd share it with those who were interested.  The evidence for it can be found in Connolly's published obituaries.  I don't mean to re-open the debate.  I don't think anyone seriously doubts Jenkins's presence any more - unless of course they have not read the evidence thoroughly or are unaware of its existence. There is simply no evidence for his NOT having been there.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7580
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Location : Cape Town South Africa

Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 10:02 am

Hi Julian
I did actually spot the Connolly connection.
Under a separate string I asked the question, as strong doubts were still emerging:
If full Military proof is required for confirming David Jenkins presence does this then mean the same reasoning would apply to all the defenders?
I then highlighted approx. 70% of the defenders that fell in the same boat. There has been a pretty deafening silence since.
I would therefore assume that there are no longer any detractors.

Cheers
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2357
Join date : 2011-09-12

Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 10:40 am

I have not followed the Jenkins thread - it seemed pointless.  But your use of italics in the above is interesting.  Since when is military proof a prerequisite for historical proof?   Never!  There is only PROOF!  The nature of the source is irrelevant.  Those who seek to require proof in such a narrow redefined way are working ahistorically such that their arguments will be invalid.  Historians will shoot arguments based on such a premise down.
It seems positively insidious that if someone doesn't like the answers he gets to questions posed then he narrows the limits of the expected answer in advance!  Contrived or what?


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 11:13 am

It was precisely for that reason I started that particular thread, to illustrate how pointless it was. Hell we could do the same exercise with half, if not more, of the dead throughout the Zulu campaign.

Cheers
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Guest
Guest



Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 11:21 am

Yes that is Fascinating, living just a few yard's
from each over, i have oft wished for a time
machine! who would not wish to chat to these
old soldier's and gently probe them for their
memories?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7580
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Butler's Painting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Butler's Painting   Butler's Painting EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 11:36 am

Les my dad did just that with Sam Wassall.

Cheers
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