Zulu Dawn:Col Crealock. “Excuse me, my Lord, there's something I must convey to you. I rode along the track down to Rorke's Drift. The sky above is red with fire. Your orders my Lord? Do we move to the drift?”
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Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:34 pm
Hi Les.
Great painting isn't it?
What does she mean by "The Army's last stand at Rorke's Drift"?? What the hell is she talking about??
And was there really any need for these two 'ladies' to turn this mini doc into a 'feminist thing'?
Never mind mate, 'Nil illegitimi Carborundum'.
John Young
Posts : 2264 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 65 Location : Lower Sheering, Essex
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:44 pm
Martin,
As far as I'm aware the Defence of the Mission Station, near to Rorke's Drift, was something of a desperate last stand, please correct me if I wrong.
As to it being a feminist thing the whole series was entitled The Story of Women in Art which might give something of an inkling of the slant taken.
Regards,
John
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:08 pm
Martin i never do and never will! i worked for a time at the carborundum plant in trafford park in Manchester, god what a hell hole, i could'nt get out of there quick enough..
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:09 pm
Hi John Y.
Ummm! Well, yes ok, I suppose that it could well have turned into a sort of last stand if the zulu's had won, but a company of men is not the army.
Right, I see, but the caption just says Lady Elizabeth Butler Rorke's Drift, no mention of the story of women in art, however, now knowing the series title, I can get the gist of the slant you mention.
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:18 pm
Hi Les.
I suppose that was the daily 'grind'
rusteze
Posts : 2872 Join date : 2010-06-02
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:30 pm
Martin
Did it take you 10 minutes to think of that? So far as the tv series is concerned you can quite see why women got the hump, given their treatment by the all male art establishment. Not allowed to work with male models because it might corrupt them, didn't work the other way around though!
Steve
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Posts : 2581 Join date : 2009-04-24
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:32 pm
It the "Defence of Rorkes Drift" not the " Last Stand of Mission station near Rorkes Drift"
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:41 pm
Hi Les.
I suppose that was the daily 'grind'
Hiya. think of lurch out of the adams family when he shakes his head and makes that noise!
Ray63
Posts : 706 Join date : 2012-05-05
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:47 pm
Why don't you discuss this type of thing in the off topic section. This is the reason topics get locked down.
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:05 pm
No Steve not 10 min's. You see, I was writing my post to JY, then when I posted it I noticed that Les had posted previously, so I replied to him afterwards, which of course makes it look like it took me 10 min's.
I have never watched the series so I can't really comment about it, however, I do see what you are saying. But women of today have got the hump with the wrong men haven't they? They seem to blame the men of today for what they see as the mistakes of the men of yesterday, and it can get like a sort of vendetta when they vent their spleen on the men of today just because they can't vent it on those of yesterday. They are always up for having a dig at todays men, and even if you behave like a gentleman towards them and treat them like ladies, they will still bite your head off.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:10 pm
"This is the reason topics get locked down". are you sure about that? little asides can enrich the debate making it entertaining as well as informative, as long as it gets back on track..
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:11 pm
Ray.
How long have you been a moderator?
If your not happy about people having some friendly chatting, why don't you ask Pete (Admin) to move it to the off topic section.
John Young
Posts : 2264 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 65 Location : Lower Sheering, Essex
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:38 pm
CTSG,
CTSG wrote:
It the "Defence of Rorkes Drift" not the " Last Stand of Mission station near Rorkes Drift"
If that statement is in response to my posting read what I have written.
By-the-way the title of Lady Butler's artwork is The defence of Rorke's Drift, January 22nd, 1879, all spellings and punctuation as Lady Butler's catalogue of artwork.
John Y.
Julian Whybra
Posts : 2452 Join date : 2011-09-12
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:23 am
Forum members might be interested to know that Connolly lived in the same street as David Jenkins, just a few doors down in fact, from the early 90s to his death in 1906 and was a member of the same United Services Club as Jenkins. Obviously this has import, since, as a known defender, he would have had ample opportunity to denounce anyone making false claims about being present at RD.
Frank Allewell
Posts : 7770 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 74 Location : Cape Town South Africa
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:28 am
Julian You mean there is doubt on the forum? Would never have guessed!
Cheers
Julian Whybra
Posts : 2452 Join date : 2011-09-12
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:53 am
springbok Well, it's just something else that I found out recently and thought I'd share it with those who were interested. The evidence for it can be found in Connolly's published obituaries. I don't mean to re-open the debate. I don't think anyone seriously doubts Jenkins's presence any more - unless of course they have not read the evidence thoroughly or are unaware of its existence. There is simply no evidence for his NOT having been there.
Frank Allewell
Posts : 7770 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 74 Location : Cape Town South Africa
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:02 am
Hi Julian I did actually spot the Connolly connection. Under a separate string I asked the question, as strong doubts were still emerging: If full Military proof is required for confirming David Jenkins presence does this then mean the same reasoning would apply to all the defenders? I then highlighted approx. 70% of the defenders that fell in the same boat. There has been a pretty deafening silence since. I would therefore assume that there are no longer any detractors.
Cheers
Julian Whybra
Posts : 2452 Join date : 2011-09-12
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:40 am
I have not followed the Jenkins thread - it seemed pointless. But your use of italics in the above is interesting. Since when is military proof a prerequisite for historical proof? Never! There is only PROOF! The nature of the source is irrelevant. Those who seek to require proof in such a narrow redefined way are working ahistorically such that their arguments will be invalid. Historians will shoot arguments based on such a premise down. It seems positively insidious that if someone doesn't like the answers he gets to questions posed then he narrows the limits of the expected answer in advance! Contrived or what?
Last edited by Julian Whybra on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:21 am; edited 1 time in total
Frank Allewell
Posts : 7770 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 74 Location : Cape Town South Africa
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:13 am
It was precisely for that reason I started that particular thread, to illustrate how pointless it was. Hell we could do the same exercise with half, if not more, of the dead throughout the Zulu campaign.
Cheers
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:21 am
Yes that is Fascinating, living just a few yard's from each over, i have oft wished for a time machine! who would not wish to chat to these old soldier's and gently probe them for their memories?
Frank Allewell
Posts : 7770 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 74 Location : Cape Town South Africa
Subject: Re: Butler's Painting Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:36 am
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