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Film Zulu Dawn quote: “Excuse me, my Lord, there's something I must convey to you. I rode along the track down to Rorke's Drift. The sky above is red with fire. Your orders my Lord? Do we move to the drift?”
 
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» William De Passey, 17th Lancers.1879.
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» A Case of Mistaken Identity?
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» What happened next
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» Surgeon Espine Charles Ward
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» 2nd Lieutenant William Lancelot James, 2nd/4th Regiment.
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 Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification.

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impi

impi

Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 40

Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. Empty
PostSubject: Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification.   Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. EmptyWed Apr 02, 2014 11:52 pm

1st June the Prince and party attacked.
The Prince was killed between 16:00hrs and 16:15hrs give or take a few minutes.  The body was found the next morning time unknown as yet. 
The body was placed on a blanket, carried to a nearby ambulance and taken to the camp on Itelezi Hill. Here the viscera were removed and buried in a biscuit box while the body was crudely embalmed by the surgeons as well as possible with the materials (mainly salt) available. The body was sent back to Natal accompanied by an escort of Natal Carbineers. The party travelled via Koppie Alleen, Vegkop, Landman's Drift, Dundee and so to Pietermaritzburg where they arrived on Sunday, 8th June. There were impressive ceremonies in Pietermaritzburg; even Colenso and Macrorie made a rare mutual appearance. The body lay during the night in the Catholic Church in Loop Street.

By 11th June the cortege had reached Durban where the whole town turned out to pay their last respects. The coffin was taken aboard HMS Boadicea and conveyed to Cape Town where it was transferred to HMS Orontes which arrived in Plymouth on July 10th.

So roughly 40 days. Can we believe he was really recognisable after all that time, many days in a hot climate.. 

Below are the 26 Stages of Death.  Number 20 is an interesting one.
I'm hoping John Young with his back ground can give his opinion.

Moment of Death: 
1} The heart stops 
2} The skin gets tight and grey in color 
3} All the muscles relax 
4} The bladder and bowels empty 
5} The body's temperature will typically drop 1.5 degrees F. per hour unless outside environment is a factor. The liver is the organ that stays warmest the longest, and this temperature is used to establish time of death if the body is found within that time frame. 
After 30 minutes: 
6} The skin gets purple and waxy 
7} The lips, finger- and toe nails fade to a pale color or turn white as the blood leaves. 
8} Blood pools at the lowest parts of the body leaving a dark purple-black stain called lividity 
9} The hands and feet turn blue {because of lack of oxygenation to the tissues} 
10} The eyes start to sink into the skull 
After 4 hours: 
11} Rigor mortis starts to set in 
12} The purpling of the skin and pooling of blood continue 
13} Rigor Mortis begins to tighten the muscles for about another 24 hours, then will reverse and the body will return to a limp state. 
After 12 hours: 
14} The body is in full rigor mortis. 
After 24 hours: 
15} The body is now the temperature of the surrounding environment 
16} In males, the spermatozoa die. 
17} The head and neck are now a greenish-blue color 
18} The greenish-blue color continues to spread to the rest of the body 
19} There is the strong smell of rotting meat {unless the corpse is in an extremelly frigid environment} 
20} The face of the person is essentially no longer recognizable 
After 3 days: 
21} The gases in the body tissues form large blisters on the skin 
22} The whole body begins to bloat and swell grotesquely. This process is speeded up if victim is in a hot environment, or in water 
23} Fluids leak from the mouth, nose, eyes, ears and rectum and urinary opening 
After 3 weeks: 
24} The skin, hair, and nails are so loose they can be easily pulled off the corpse 
25} The skin cracks and bursts open in many places because of the pressure of Internal gases and the breakdown of the skin itself 
26} Decomposition will continue until body is nothing but skeletal remains, which can take as little as a month in hot climates and two months in cold climates. The teeth are often the only thing left, years and centuries later, because tooth enamel is the strongest substance in the body. The jawbone is the densest, so that usually will also remain. 
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Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification.   Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. EmptyThu Apr 03, 2014 12:26 am

Nice one impi, pity there was
no capt birdeye back in the day!
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Ulundi

Ulundi

Posts : 558
Join date : 2012-05-05

Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification.   Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. EmptyThu Apr 03, 2014 1:07 am

Impi number 22. Wasn't this one if the reason's the Zulu disemboweled the dead? Would disembowelment slow down the decomposing timeline.

I'm sure when it comes to enbarming with salt, the salt is place inside the body, and in turn drys the body out.
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sas1

sas1

Posts : 629
Join date : 2009-01-20
Age : 42

Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification.   Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. EmptyThu Apr 03, 2014 11:07 pm

When the body arrived in the UK. It would have been Blacker than the Zulu's that killed him. Take my word for it.  agree 
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sas1

sas1

Posts : 629
Join date : 2009-01-20
Age : 42

Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification.   Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. EmptyThu Apr 03, 2014 11:10 pm

impi wrote:
1st June the Prince and party attacked.
The Prince was killed between 16:00hrs and 16:15hrs give or take a few minutes.  The body was found the next morning time unknown as yet. 
The body was placed on a blanket, carried to a nearby ambulance and taken to the camp on Itelezi Hill. Here the viscera were removed and buried in a biscuit box while the body was crudely embalmed by the surgeons as well as possible with the materials (mainly salt) available. The body was sent back to Natal accompanied by an escort of Natal Carbineers. The party travelled via Koppie Alleen, Vegkop, Landman's Drift, Dundee and so to Pietermaritzburg where they arrived on Sunday, 8th June. There were impressive ceremonies in Pietermaritzburg; even Colenso and Macrorie made a rare mutual appearance. The body lay during the night in the Catholic Church in Loop Street.

By 11th June the cortege had reached Durban where the whole town turned out to pay their last respects. The coffin was taken aboard HMS Boadicea and conveyed to Cape Town where it was transferred to HMS Orontes which arrived in Plymouth on July 10th.

So roughly 40 days. Can we believe he was really recognisable after all that time, many days in a hot climate.. 

Below are the 26 Stages of Death.  Number 20 is an interesting one.
I'm hoping John Young with his back ground can give his opinion.

Moment of Death: 
1} The heart stops 
2} The skin gets tight and grey in color 
3} All the muscles relax 
4} The bladder and bowels empty 
5} The body's temperature will typically drop 1.5 degrees F. per hour unless outside environment is a factor. The liver is the organ that stays warmest the longest, and this temperature is used to establish time of death if the body is found within that time frame. 
After 30 minutes: 
6} The skin gets purple and waxy 
7} The lips, finger- and toe nails fade to a pale color or turn white as the blood leaves. 
8} Blood pools at the lowest parts of the body leaving a dark purple-black stain called lividity 
9} The hands and feet turn blue {because of lack of oxygenation to the tissues} 
10} The eyes start to sink into the skull 
After 4 hours: 
11} Rigor mortis starts to set in 
12} The purpling of the skin and pooling of blood continue 
13} Rigor Mortis begins to tighten the muscles for about another 24 hours, then will reverse and the body will return to a limp state. 
After 12 hours: 
14} The body is in full rigor mortis. 
After 24 hours: 
15} The body is now the temperature of the surrounding environment 
16} In males, the spermatozoa die. 
17} The head and neck are now a greenish-blue color 
18} The greenish-blue color continues to spread to the rest of the body 
19} There is the strong smell of rotting meat {unless the corpse is in an extremelly frigid environment} 
20} The face of the person is essentially no longer recognizable 
After 3 days: 
21} The gases in the body tissues form large blisters on the skin 
22} The whole body begins to bloat and swell grotesquely. This process is speeded up if victim is in a hot environment, or in water 
23} Fluids leak from the mouth, nose, eyes, ears and rectum and urinary opening 
After 3 weeks: 
24} The skin, hair, and nails are so loose they can be easily pulled off the corpse 
25} The skin cracks and bursts open in many places because of the pressure of Internal gases and the breakdown of the skin itself 
26} Decomposition will continue until body is nothing but skeletal remains, which can take as little as a month in hot climates and two months in cold climates. The teeth are often the only thing left, years and centuries later, because tooth enamel is the strongest substance in the body. The jawbone is the densest, so that usually will also remain. 

This looks like a soldiers menu. Starting to get hunger pains!
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Ray63

Ray63

Posts : 708
Join date : 2012-05-05

Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification.   Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. EmptyThu Apr 03, 2014 11:15 pm

Excellent!  agree 
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barry

barry

Posts : 922
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. Empty
PostSubject: The Prince Imperial's escort   Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. EmptyFri Apr 04, 2014 4:57 pm

Hi Impi,
Interesting post. However, one correction needs to be made.
The Natal Carbineers were not the escorts of the Prince's cortege from Pietermaritzburg to HMS Boadicea, but the Natal Mounted Police were.

Regards,

barry
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John

John

Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 58
Location : UK

Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification.   Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. EmptySun Apr 06, 2014 11:11 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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barry

barry

Posts : 922
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. Empty
PostSubject: Visit to SA   Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. EmptySun Apr 06, 2014 11:25 am

Hi 90th,
Pleased to hear that you are enjoying your visit to SA.
Yes all is well here, we just having returned from a 2300km road trip to the eastern Cape. The coastal weather there on the day we left was very ropey, but ameliorated on moving back onto the Highveld.
Actually seeing the places, as you are, written so often about actually helps with the understanding of events. I hope that you took a good look at Fort Pearson whilst going over the Tugela bridge and have paced out Helpmekaar by now and can write about that "mile".

regards,

barry
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2138
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification.   Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. EmptySun Apr 06, 2014 1:08 pm

John,

With regard to piece you added 'Zulu War Memory' it was a member of the 17th Lancers who wrapped the Prince Imperial's body in a blanket.  Now we just have to establish which J. Clarke that was as there was a Sergeant 1417 J. Clarke and a Private 1755 J. Clarke in the 17th Lancers at the time.

Barry,

The Natal Mounted Police escort were supplied by those stationed at Estcourt, they in turn were supplemented by other N.M.P. from Pietermaritzburg.  In theory they should have only gone as far as the railway station at Botha's Hill.

However, as you say they carried on to Durban, for the evidence of that see this photograph:

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The Prince Imperial's departure from Natal.
John Young Collection.

Here's a close-up of the N.M.P. mounted behind the R.A.'s gun-carriage horses.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
John Young Collection.

Also of interest they managed to find some uniforms for the N.N.C. that day as well.
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N.N.C. in uniform Durban, 1879.
John Young Collection.

One in the centre foreground; one off to the left beside the officer on the grey horse.  Two others with backs to the photographer by the ranked infantry.

John Y.
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barry

barry

Posts : 922
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. Empty
PostSubject: Natal Mounted Police escourt, Durban harbour   Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. EmptySun Apr 06, 2014 3:04 pm

Hi JohnY

Thanks for the pics.
I see NMP Cpl Clarke at the end of one of the rows in the middle picture.
I will shortly post extracts from Cpl Clarkes diaries on the part he played in all of this.

regards

barry

PS : I do not see NNC present in the pics., and to my knowledge were not involved,
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Was the Prince Imperials Body to Decomposed For Identification. Empty
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