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| The defenders of Rorkes Drift | |
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+12Chard1879 Ulundi littlehand Chelmsfordthescapegoat Mr M. Cooper Ray63 John Young impi barry rusteze John Frank Allewell 16 posters | |
Author | Message |
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Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:42 am | |
| On the same basis that David Jenkins participation in the battle has been disputed and that as of today Ive not seen any official military acceptance of the following personel, would the forum agree that they should all be removed from the roll of defenders at Rorkes Drift. If not I would love to hear the reasons why not?
Milne, Frederick. Sergeant. 2260
1st Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot
Desmond, Patrick. Private. 25B/568 Jenkins, David. Private. 25B/295 Payton, Thomas. Private. 25B/372 Turner, Henry. Private. 25B/l04 Wilson, Edward. Sergeant. 25B/56
2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire)
Ashton, James. Private. 2-24/913, B Company Barry, Thomas. Private. 25B/1381, B Company Bennett, William Private. 25B/918, B Company Bessell, William. Lance-Corporal. 25B/l287, B Company Bly, John. Private. 2-24/2427, B Company Bromwich, Joseph. Private. 25B/1524, B Company Buckley, Thomas. Private. 25B/1184, B Company Burke, Thomas. Private. 25B/1220, B Company Bushe, James. Private. 2-24/2350, B Company Camp, William Henry. Private. 25B/1181, B Company Chester, Thomas. Private. 25B/1241, B Company Clayton, Thomas. Private. 25B/755, B Company Cole, Robert. Private. 25B/1459, F Company Collins, Thomas. Private.25B/1396, B Company Connolly, John. Private. 25B/906, C Company Connors, Anthony. Private. 2-24/2310, B Company Connors, Timothy. Private. 2-24/1323, B Company Cooper, William. Private. 2-24/2453, F Company Davies, George. Private. 25B/470, B Company Davis, William Henry. Private. 25B/1363, B Company Daw, Thomas. Private. 25B/1178, B Company Deane, Michael. Private. 25B/1357, B Company Dick, James. Private. 2-24/1697, B Company Dicks, William. Private. 2-24/1634, B Company Driscoll, Thomas. Private. 25B/971, B Company Dunbar, James. Private. 25B/1421, B Company Edwards, George. Private. 25B/922, B Company, alias George Edward Orchard Evans, Frederick. Private. 25B/953, H Company French, George. Corporal. 2-24/582, B Company Galgey, Patrick. Drummer 2-24/1713, D Company Gallagher, Henry. Sergeant. 25B/81, B Company Gee, Edward. Private. 2-24/2429, B Company Hagan, James. Private. 25B/978, B Company Halley, William. Lance-Corporal. 25B/l282, B Company Harris, John. Private. 25B/1062, B Company Hayes, Patrick. Drummer 2-24/2067, B Company Jobbins, John. Private. 25B/1061, B Company Jones, Evan. Private. 25B/1428, B Company, alias Patrick Cosgrove Jones, John. Private. 25B/1179, B Company Jones, John. Private. 25B/970, B Company Judge, Peter. Private. 2-24/2437, B Company Kears, Patrick. Private. 25B/972, B Company Keefe, James. Drummer 2-24/2381, B Company Key, John. Corporal. 2-24/2389, B Company Kiley, Michael. Private. 25B/1386, B Company Lewis, David. Private. 25B/963, B Company, alias James Owen Lines, Henry. Private. 2-24/1528, B Company Lloyd, David. Private. 25B/1409, B Company Lockhart, Thomas. Private. 25B/1176, B Company Lodge, Joshua. Private. 25B/1304, B Company Lynch, Thomas Michael. Private. 25B/942, B Company Lyons, John. Corporal. 25B/1112, B Company Lyons. John. Private. 2-24/1441, A Company Manley, John. Private. 2-24/1731, A Company Marshall, James. Private. 25B/964, B Company Martin, Henry. Private. 25B/756, B Company Mason, Charles. Private. 25B/1284, B Company Meehan, John. Drummer 2-24/2383, A Company Minehan, Michael. Private. 2-24/1527, B Company Moffatt, Thomas. Private. 25B/968, B Company Morris, Augustus. Private. 25B/1342, B Company Morris, Frederick. Private. 25B/525, B Company Morrison, Thomas. Private. 25B/1371, B Company Murphy, John. Private. 25B/662, B Company Neville, William. Private. 25B/1279, B Company Norris, Robert. Private. 25B/1257, B Company Osborne, William. Private. 25B/1480, B Company Parry, Samuel. Private. 25B/1399, B Company Partridge, William. Private. 25B/1410, G Company Pitt, Samuel. Private. 25B/1186, B Company Robinson, Edward. Private. 25B/1286, B Company Ruck, James. Private. 25B/1065, B Company Savage, Edward. Private. 25B/1185, B Company Saxty, Alfred. Corporal. 25B/849, B Company Sears, Arthur. Private. 2-24/2404, A Company Shearman, George. Private. 2-24/1618, B Company Shergold, John. Private. 2-24/914, B Company Smith, George. Sergeant. 2-24/1387, B Company Smith, John. Private. 25B/1005, B Company Stevens ,Thomas. Private. 25B/777, B Company Tasker, William. Private. 2-24/1812, B Company Taylor, Frederick. Private. 25B/973, B Company Taylor, James. Lance-Sgt. 25B/82, E Company Taylor, Thomas Edward. Private. 25B/889, B Company Thomas, John. Private. 25B/1280, B Company, alias Peter Sawyer Thompson, John. Private. 25B/1394, B Company Tobin, Michael. Private. 25B/879, B Company Tobin, Patrick. Private. 25B/641, B Company Todd, William John. Private. 25B/1281, B Company Tongue, Robert. Private. 25B/1315, B Company Wall, John. Private. 25B/1497, B Company Whetton, Alfred. Private. 2-24/977, B Company Wilcox, William. Private. 25B/1187, B Company Williams, John. Private. 25B/934, E Company Windridge, Joseph. Sergeant. 2-24/735, B Company Wood, Caleb. Private. 25B/1316, B Company
90th Light Infantry
Graham, James. Corporal. 1123, alias Daniel Sheehan
Cheers |
| | | John
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:00 am | |
| If there names do not appear on any of the roll calls. Then yes take them off until evidence can be found to show they did take part. Evidence shoud be show on military documention. All those on Chard Roll is a definate must. |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:03 am | |
| Hi John Why? Chards roll wasn't prepared by him? Bournes was from memory based on the so called Chards. Anyway those rolls weren't prepared by the regiment. So there is no official roll
Cheers |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:56 am | |
| Morning springbok Was it not really Cantwell's roll.. |
| | | rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:04 am | |
| Morning all !
I see the subject staggers on, against all odds.
People really do have to think a little more about the consequences of only accepting military records as evidence.
On that basis, you would rule out the service of many thousands of soldiers in World War 1, for whom no military records exist. I don't think any of us would take that position would we?
Steve |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:12 am | |
| Shrouded in mystery Les. I personally believe the first roll was by Rev Smith, that was published in April 1879 in the Natal papers. The Chard roll only appears in 1930 ish and yes is attributed to Cantwell, a civilian by the way. Bournes list was based on that as well. The earliest one seems to still be the Rev Smith. Bottom line is Les, none of those lists can be classified as Military and there fore in terms of the evidence demanded on the now closed Jenkins thread can not be acceptable as a military acceptance of those men at Rorkes Drift. Therefore again in terms of the evidence demanded the only men that can be deemed as accepted by the regiment are those buried at RD and those that were awarded medals. Most or possibly all the letters etc from RD will have to be discounted as unreliable. This is not a facetious comment but a genuine concern as to what our forum members are proposing.
Cheers MAte |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:13 am | |
| Sorry Steve we crossed, your quite right, hence the list I posted. Cheers |
| | | barry
Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay
| Subject: The official rolls Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:53 pm | |
| Hi Sprinbok9, Thoroughly concur. The preposterous suggestion would mean that a major part of the rich military history, much of in orginating privately would be meaningless and wiped out. Where are we going!!? This ridiculous idea just gives a lie to the abysmally poor understanding of these things by the naysayers.
regards
barry
Last edited by barry on Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:02 pm | |
| - rusteze wrote:
- Morning all !
I see the subject staggers on, against all odds.
People really do have to think a little more about the consequences of only accepting military records as evidence.
On that basis, you would rule out the service of many thousands of soldiers in World War 1, for whom no military records exist. I don't think any of us would take that position would we?
Steve Steve it would be best to stick to the the period in History the forum is designed for. The question relates to the Anglo Zulu War 1879 and participants. Dragging WW1 into will confuse the issue further. |
| | | rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:11 pm | |
| Impi
Now it's you missing the point.
Steve |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:02 pm | |
| No, not really just trying to keep the discussion on topic! |
| | | rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:16 pm | |
| Impi
Are you really agreeing that all of the names on Springbock's list should not be accepted as defenders until military evidence comes to light? I can't believe thats what you think.
Steve |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:00 pm | |
| Where does it say, I'm agreeing ?
I accept all the rolls and names on them, if the roll has been signed by a member of the Military regime. |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:32 pm | |
| None of the rolls were signed by a Military Regime. So Im assuming you don't accept them ?
Cheers |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3319 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:35 pm | |
| Impi,
Military regime? Did I miss the coup?
The so-called John Chard roll isn't signed by him, so do we dismiss it?
Frank Bourne's roll does not bear his signature. Worse still it bears a badge with King's crown which bears the legend - dare I say it - the South Wales Borderers. Do we consign that to rubbish pile likewise.
Dunbar's roll is signed but only relates to those 2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment, so it would not include any other defenders from any other units including the 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment.
Doesn't leave many to chose from does it?
John Y. |
| | | Ray63
Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:37 pm | |
| [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]1195 Robert Smythe served in C Company 2/24th. Also served with the 2nd battalion in Burma. Medal group is in the SWB Museum. Remember 2nd battalion was stationed at Rorke's Drift for some 6 weeks after the famous action. |
| | | Ray63
Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:43 pm | |
| - John Young wrote:
- Impi,
Military regime? Did I miss the coup?
The so-called John Chard roll isn't signed by him, so do we dismiss it?
Frank Bourne's roll does not bear his signature. Worse still it bears a badge with King's crown which bears the legend - dare I say it - the South Wales Borderers. Do we consign that to rubbish pile likewise.
Dunbar's roll is signed but only relates to those 2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment, so it would not include any other defenders from any other units including the 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment.
Doesn't leave many to chose from does it?
John Y. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] |
| | | Mr M. Cooper
Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:47 pm | |
| LOL. "Dare I say it - the swb". Love it, nice one JY. Bourne's roll wasn't compiled untill years after the defence of RD, so by then the King was on the throne and (unfortunately) the regiment was now the swb. Nice bit of humour there John, cheered me up no end. |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3319 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:48 pm | |
| Ray,
As I stated above the so-called Chard roll is not signed by John Chard.
So there is no need to reproduce it for my benefit. As I am fully aware that is not his signature.
John Y. |
| | | Ray63
Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:49 pm | |
| So is the Chard and Bourne rolls in-correct? The image above certainly shows Chards name and to who the list was sent Glyn. |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3319 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:52 pm | |
| Ray,
Read what I have written.
John Y. |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:53 pm | |
| Ray The point I am making is that neither Robert Smyth nor any of the others on my list meet the criteria put forward on the other string. It was mooted that Jenkins could not be 'admitted' until proof of a military nature was provided. I would say the same of all the men I have listed. Many of these men wrote letters and gave interviews for local newspapers, but that form of 'proof' has been regarded as not acceptable. The extracts you have posted were not from a list compiled by Chard, the signature is not his.
Cheers
|
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:58 pm | |
| Ray Chard produced a synopsis, a list of the numbers present wounded and killed but did not contain the names. The list you have posted is speculated to have been produced by a civilian by the name of Cantwell for the 50th anniversary. It was based on a list produced by the Rev Smith, Bourns list was also based on Smiths list. I will re iterate Johns comment, the signature is a forgery.
And I come back to my point there is no military proof of those men being there.
Cheers |
| | | Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:00 pm | |
| - John Young wrote:
- Ray,
As I stated above the so-called Chard roll is not signed by John Chard.
So there is no need to reproduce it for my benefit. As I am fully aware that is not his signature.
John Y. John you have a nasty habit of talking in riddles. "You say you are fully aware this not his signature" So what we have to take your word for that, how about backing up what you say with the source for once. |
| | | Ray63
Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:44 pm | |
| Springbok, who put the names on the original list, there must have been one. I believe dated the 3rd or 23rd Feb 1879. |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:57 pm | |
| Ray it has never been established who the compiler of the 'Chard' roll was. So to-date we must assume it was Chard. Unless someone can post evidence to show otherwise. I'm more than happy to be corrected! And will thank whoever posts the evidence. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:30 pm | |
| Hiya impi, have you read this recently?.
https://s1297.photobucket.com/user/xhosa2000/media/a_zps1e1ddb0e.jpg.html?sort=6&o=0 |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:32 pm | |
| - springbok9 wrote:
- Ray
Chard produced a synopsis, a list of the numbers present wounded and killed but did not contain the names. The list you have posted is speculated to have been produced by a civilian by the name of Cantwell for the 50th anniversary. It was based on a list produced by the Rev Smith, Bourns list was also based on Smiths list. I will re iterate Johns comment, the signature is a forgery.
And I come back to my point there is no military proof of those men being there.
Cheers Ray Posted earlier |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:35 pm | |
| Impi If your going to insist that was compiled by Chard then you have your 'Military' proof for Jenkins. For the full story and research however on the roll read Norman Holmes.
cheers |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:54 pm | |
| I'm not insisting nothing. All I have asked, is that someone provides evidence that shows it wasn't compiled by Chard. I'm guessing that we have some hand writing experts on the forum who are confident that's not Chards signature, so confident they are willing to say its forged. |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3319 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:24 pm | |
| Impi,
Not knowing what books you have - if any - on the subject of the Anglo-Zulu War, the so-called Chard roll has been disputed in at least three works that I am aware of.
I have John Chard's signature on a contemporary document, I can assure you that signature Ray has reproduced is NOT that of John Chard.
Chard's signature appears on a number of documents and has been reproduced online and in a number of books for example on page 271 of The Noble 24th; page 410 of Battlefield Heroes by Knollys & Elliott; page 108 of Zulu! by Ed Yorke; facing page 350 Atkinson's The South Wales Borderers - 24th Foot - 1689 to 1937; page 54 of The Silver Wreath; page 365 Rorke's Drift by Greaves etc. & etc.
Hopefully you have at least one of those works and you can drawn your own conclusions, as I don't think there are any handwriting experts on the forum.
John Y. |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:26 pm | |
| You talk, but you don't show. |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3319 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:41 pm | |
| Impi,
If that last comment is directed to me.
What do I have to show? Please tell me?
I have written where you might find your answer, if you cannot be bothered to look for yourself why should I do it for you.
John Y. |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:45 pm | |
| You have a habit, of making statements, and quoting sources but fail to show. Not everyone has the books you mention. But most members are helpfull by posting the source, either in text format or photo. |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3319 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:51 pm | |
| Impi,
I have a name if you are addressing me, then use it.
At least I have the common courtesy to address you by the one you chose to hide behind.
If you don't have the books, might I suggest you go and join a library.
John Y. |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 56 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:54 pm | |
| Now now! Children! Chards signature. Not the same as the one on the roll call. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Hope it helps! |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:55 pm | |
| Read your last few posts back impi, there a tad aggressive, nobody is duty bound to dance to anybodys tune! any decent library has at least some these works..one of which i posted above, all you have to do is read it when you have the time! |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 56 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:57 pm | |
| |
| | | Guest Guest
| | | | John Young
Posts : 3319 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:04 pm | |
| Littlehand,
But who is to say that the signature on http://www.soldiersofthequeen.com/SouthAfrica-JohnChardVC.html is for real?
I for one would as it matches that in my own collection!
John Y. |
| | | Ray63
Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:07 pm | |
| http://www.royalwelsh.org.uk/downloads/zulu-catalogue/zulu-war-catalogue2.pdf
Why is the Roll call associated to Chard on the website above. |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 56 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:21 pm | |
| - John Young wrote:
- Littlehand,
But who is to say that the signature on http://www.soldiersofthequeen.com/SouthAfrica-JohnChardVC.html is for real?
I for one would as it matches that in my own collection!
John Y. Possibly. The one I found in an image only search is this! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:27 am | |
| Thanks LH. JY. How can that be in your collect. It belongs to Edward Garcia. |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:00 am | |
| The subject is getting miss directed. Its beyond doubt that the signatory to the roll was not Chard. That re poses the original question. The list of men posted do not have any military proof they were at Rorkes Drift, should they then be removed from the list of defenders. If not why not?
Last edited by springbok9 on Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:09 am | |
| Impi A couple of weeks back Steve I think posted a link to the Royal Archives showing the original drawings of RD by John Chard, they were signed by him. The signatures are so far apart the do not need an expert to spot the differences.
Cheers |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:23 am | |
| Hi Springbok. I did look at those sketches yesterday to compair. But couldn't see any signature, just initials. |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:43 am | |
| I will scan one in and post it. |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:53 am | |
| I have a couple of other samples as well but they are all the same. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Cheers |
| | | Ulundi
Posts : 558 Join date : 2012-05-05
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:56 pm | |
| Getting some what lost with this issue of the non-military connection with the various rolls. Who ever complied these roll, took part in the defence of RD. is that not a military connection. |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:41 pm | |
| Hi Ulundi To you and I yes ! However a few forum members have suggested that unless there is a verifiable/written connection then no. The rolls all stem from one source, the rev Smith and was a civilian. The 'Chard Roll' was believed to have been compiled from the Smith list around the 50th anniversary of the battle and intended as a souvenir hence the 'signature' of chard. Atkinson got hold of it and used it in his history of the regiment. Chard himself submitted a list to Glyn. But that listing did not have individuals, except for the killed, it was attached to his sketch of the battle. The Dunbar roll is really the only one that wasn't based on Smiths roll, and that only had the 2/24th suvivors, not the killed and again contain a lot of errors. Private J Waters and Bourne also published 'rolls' both of these were based on Smiths roll, we know this because Smiths roll had some errors, spelling numbers etc and these same errors occur in both the other rolls. George Mabin, the fighting clerk, was interviewed for a local cape paper and waved the Natal Mercury with Smiths list and report printed, around saying: "A lot of people say they were there, ay afterwards, but these are the men that were there."
Cheers
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