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Film Zulu Dawn quote: “Excuse me, my Lord, there's something I must convey to you. I rode along the track down to Rorke's Drift. The sky above is red with fire. Your orders my Lord? Do we move to the drift?”
 
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 A new slant on Jamming cartridges and its cause

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Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw

Posts : 552
Join date : 2009-10-14
Location : Loughborough

A new slant on Jamming cartridges and its cause Empty
PostSubject: A new slant on Jamming cartridges and its cause   A new slant on Jamming cartridges and its cause EmptyMon Oct 06, 2014 10:09 pm

Hi guys, not been on for a while as I've been moving house and all the things that go with that. Always one for a balanced historically correct perspective heres one.... and quite big, a meeting held on Wednesday the 22nd September 1885, present was H T Arbuthnot of the RSAF Enfield, Barlow, Superintendent at Woolwich and Abel, Government Chemist. the proceeds of which have never been alluded to, but the ramification is huge this in the words of Arbuthnot “It was very soon after I went to Enfield (promoted Superintendent April 1880: NA) that you made a change with the lacquer I think?”, Abel had replied. “yes, there was a change made in them and it was because we found that the lacquer came out of the case and glued the case into the chamber” interesting indeed.
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http://www.martinihenry.org
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

A new slant on Jamming cartridges and its cause Empty
PostSubject: Re: A new slant on Jamming cartridges and its cause   A new slant on Jamming cartridges and its cause EmptyMon Oct 06, 2014 10:40 pm

Neil interesting. This relates to the same problem, albeit not MH ammuntion!

"Potential Problems with Wolf AmmunitionEdit

"Lacquer coating
Wolf no longer manufactures ammunition with a lacquer coating on the cartridge casing due to issues concerning lacquer-coated steel cartridges becoming stuck in the chamber of a firearm after firing, with difficulty in ejecting the spent cartridge afterwards. This appears to be more of a problem with cartridges with narrowly tapering walls (e.g. .223 Remington) than those with rather steep case walls such as 7.62x39 mm cartridges or pistol ammunition. This also does not seem to pose much of a problem for Soviet or East Bloc designed weapons that tend to have looser chamber clearances than Western designed weapons.

Tests have shown that steel-cased Wolf cases do not obturate sufficiently to form a good gas seal against the chamber [2] when compared to brass-cased ammunition. As a result, when Wolf cartridges are fired, some of the combustion by-products are deposited between the case and the chamber, causing a buildup of carbon that is well in excess of normal. Firing a brass case (that does expand fully) after using Wolf ammunition without cleaning the gun first can result in the brass case being "glued" into the chamber by the carbon buildup. This issue has nothing to do with the lacquer coating vaporising or melting, as has mistakenly been suggested. The problem is one of carbon deposition, which creates the same end result (i.e.; a stuck cartridge that has jammed in the chamber). It is important to emphasise that Wolf ammunition is perfectly safe to use because it conforms to all SAAMI standards. However, it is recommended that firearms are thoroughly cleaned after using Wolf ammunition due to the increased rate of carbon build-up within the chamber. As mentioned in the previous paragraph, the looser chamber dimensions of Soviet-designed weapons allow for more room during firing and extraction. Soviet or East Bloc weapons do not experience these problems."

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barry

barry

Posts : 922
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

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PostSubject: The Martini Henry   A new slant on Jamming cartridges and its cause EmptyTue Oct 07, 2014 7:04 am

Hi Neil,
Good to hear from you.
Indeed, the writings of many of the survivors of the African wars will tel you explicitly about the jamming of the Martini Henri. What was worse however was that sometimes the extraction process pulled the rim off the case and made the rifle inoperable until a gunsmith could either ream out the used brass, or sometimes pull it out. This made the weapon useless in the interim.
Added to this, but part of it was the overheating of the breach under sustained rapid fire conditions. This was addressed later by a mod which involved a leather handguard fitted over the breach area. Altho the MH was cutting edge technology of the time in the BA, it certainly had some problems.

regards

barry
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Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw

Posts : 552
Join date : 2009-10-14
Location : Loughborough

A new slant on Jamming cartridges and its cause Empty
PostSubject: Re: A new slant on Jamming cartridges and its cause   A new slant on Jamming cartridges and its cause EmptyTue Oct 07, 2014 10:14 am

Hi Barry
Regarding the base rims, there is very little evidence, apart from in the early days of the MkI cartridge of the extractor tearing off the baseplate and my have I looked! and in the 100's of testimonies I have read, only Gambier Parry in his book "Suakin", and Colour Sgt John Drew of the RMLI are the only two definitive primary sources . Gambier Parry eluded regularly to his early days as musketry inspector at Hythe and is not specific as to the date. Captain EMS Crabbe of the Grenadier Guards, who wrote in 1878 about jammed cartridges, never saw it, he was asked at the official enquiry in 1885. Crabbe had been inspector of Musketry for four years!, he'd seen jamming, but not base delamination, and one can only imagine how many rounds he'd seen fired, also..as to the state of his hearing!

Whilst I'm getting to the bottom of the Jamming issues (9000 words now) for my book, it is actually primary source quotes etc (not general soldiers hearsay) that I am after for the case for and against.
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90th

90th

Posts : 10143
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: A New Slant on Jamming Cartridges and its cause    A new slant on Jamming cartridges and its cause EmptyTue Oct 07, 2014 10:18 am

Hi Neil
Glad to have you back , what exactly does your book entail ? . I'm sure it's been mentioned but can you give me a refresher please . You need to study mo
Cheers 90th
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Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw

Posts : 552
Join date : 2009-10-14
Location : Loughborough

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PostSubject: Re: A new slant on Jamming cartridges and its cause   A new slant on Jamming cartridges and its cause EmptyTue Oct 07, 2014 10:25 am

90th, Its going to be called The Martini Henry "A Mighty Fine Rifle" (Hooks words..not mine). A full historical on the military Martini, the men and factories who made it, how it was made, the ammo, the jamming, the bayonets and the supposed bending scandal and lots of previously un published info, all from official government archive.
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: A new slant on Jamming cartridges and its cause   A new slant on Jamming cartridges and its cause EmptyTue Oct 07, 2014 11:32 am

Neil didn't Hook say "We were using Martini's, and fine rifles they were too."
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90th

90th

Posts : 10143
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: A new slant on jamming cartridges and its cause    A new slant on Jamming cartridges and its cause EmptyTue Oct 07, 2014 11:46 pm

Hi Neil
Thanks for the reply much appreciated , hard to beat Government Archival reports / evidence , I'll be looking to get a copy , signed of course ! Very Happy Salute
Cheers 90th agree
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