| Durnford was he capable. 4 | |
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+18durnfordthescapegoat John littlehand Chard1879 ymob Ulundi 90th Chelmsfordthescapegoat sas1 Frank Allewell 6pdr Mr M. Cooper impi rusteze Ray63 ADMIN Julian Whybra 24th 22 posters |
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Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:07 pm | |
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| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:08 pm | |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:27 pm | |
| Xhosa Although I have seen the letters before and indeed I have copies can you tell me what footnote 10 says relating to Bootlegs and Adam - I'd like to know whether these are horses or African servants! |
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Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:09 pm | |
| Hiya..Footnote 10 verbatim. Unfortunately it is not known what happened to Bootlegs and Adam nor to Mabuto and old Tom referred to a little later. Parhaps Bootlegs was Mabuto's nickname-it seems that they must all have been killed. Alfred's letter and Joseph's letter to his son Kit are in Ginty's box. Col Glynn's name, mentioned in Joseph's letter to Kit is normally spelt with one ' n ' but we have left it as it appears in the original letter. |
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Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:13 pm | |
| Nigel Green,( Bourne ) Khartoum, Wolseley. |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:29 pm | |
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Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:46 pm | |
| Your the man! have you a pub date for ES's. |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:21 pm | |
| Xhosa England's Sons 8th edition is still available (from me - the RWMuseum seems to be having financial cutbacks so is not buying anything new for the moment [except my Zulu Studies vols 1,2, and when it's ready 3]) |
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Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:48 pm | |
| Speaking of 3?????????????????????? |
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90th
Posts : 10912 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Durnford was he capable 2 Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:30 am | |
| Hi Julian Do you have a release date for number 3 ? . Cheers 90th |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:03 am | |
| Spring 2015. Can't be more definite I'm afraid. All the parts are there; they just need tweaking, polishing and double-checking (I try to be a meticulous proof reader). I won't be hurried over the 'endgame'; I then know that what goes out is right and beyond reproach. |
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ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:14 pm | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
Frederic "Industrial revolution" - a bad thing? "the concentration camps" = the U.S. "famine potatoes" - not an invention
Mister Whybra, Mister Henderson had written to his father that i have "lost my head".... Apologies for my harsh answer. I know you have not bad intention. Cheers Frédéric |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:18 pm | |
| Frédéric Parmi toutes les personnes sur le forum, je accepte volontiers la critique de toi. C'est une honneur. Tu n'as pas besoin de t'excuser. Julian |
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Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:44 am | |
| Julian the fact that the RRW museum is cutting back, will that affect your sales outlet on vol3 and hopefully 4 onwards?
Cheers |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:20 am | |
| Springbok I was told (kindly) that my Studies in the ZW were almost the only things that were selling and they would welcome volume 3 when it's ready. Hopefully it's only a temporary crisis at the museum. |
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90th
Posts : 10912 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Durnford was he capable 2 Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:28 am | |
| Agreed , hopefully things will certainly improve ! 90th |
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rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:11 pm | |
| I read elsewhere that they have a new curator.
Steve |
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6pdr
Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:22 pm | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- Springbok
I was told (kindly) that my Studies in the ZW were almost the only things that were selling and they would welcome volume 3 when it's ready. Hopefully it's only a temporary crisis at the museum. It's amazing to hear that because I have ordered from them exactly twice...to get your volumes 1 and 2. Both times they took the money and did not send anything without multiple follow on e-mails to specific individuals there whose e-mail address I secured from knowledgeable folks here on the forum. From what I could tell one woman was doing everything including cooking and washing bottles. Without her address there is no telling how long it would have taken to receive your publications...or whether I ever would. My third attempt to do business with them (for Jackson's books) suffered from a sort of benign neglect as well, but at least I had not given them any money up front. Based on my experience I would guess you would get more accidental orders if you sold it through Amazon than you probably get fulfilled intentionally though the museum. Sorry, but it's the truth... |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:08 pm | |
| 6pdr Whilst not wanting to go into the reason for the recent difficulties at the Museum, I am aware that it now has a new curator since August, and a new admin asst. (in fact there does seem to have been a complete turnover of staff). I gather the previous admin asst. is still helping out for a day or two a week and Martin is also lending a hand here and there. Hopefully the situation has improved in terms of purchasing from its shop. I know of others who've bought my books recently from there and had no problem. Do keep me posted if the situation recurs. |
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Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:03 pm | |
| Julian Is that the end of Bill and Celia? |
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ADMIN
Posts : 4358 Join date : 2008-11-01 Age : 65 Location : KENT
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:14 pm | |
| I was informed that Richard Davies has taken over as Curator. He has a wealth of Museum experience, but unfortunately, knows very little on the AZW. Bill is still a member, of the forum and can be contacted. |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:42 pm | |
| Celia is coming in to the museum for a couple of days a week. |
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90th
Posts : 10912 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Durnford was he capable 2 Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:11 pm | |
| In all my dealings with the Museum I had no problems , but I havent dealt with them for quite a while , earlier this year possibly ? Celia always seemed to be the one who took care of my orders as well ! , I'm sure she is sorely missed the days she isnt in attendance ? . Cheers 90th |
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Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:36 pm | |
| Hear Hear Gary, what a wonderful Lady the delightful Ms Green is..she has been a treasure and unsung heroine for many many years.. others might reflect in this modern world of superfast service, that there is a more delicate and might i suggest mildly eccentric way of doing things that is essentially british..and even endearing.
Yes there is a new curator i also heard some news a couple of months ago which was strictly confidential and quite rightly so.. so whats to be done?. i guess between us, the other place and any other interested parties we can offer our full support to the Museum going forward.. they sound like they really need it, and after all none of them are getting any younger, we need the younger element to step up i think. |
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ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:24 pm | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- Frédéric
Parmi toutes les personnes sur le forum, je accepte volontiers la critique de toi. C'est une honneur. Tu n'as pas besoin de t'excuser. Julian Bonsoir Mister Whybra, Thank you, for yours kinds words. I think I suffered Waterloo's syndrom, !!! : Thoughts about historian's profession: "La noblesse du métier d'écrivain [ historien ] est dans la résistance à l'oppression ; donc au consentement à la solititude". Albert CAMUS / Le premier homme. Amitiés. Frédéric |
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ADMIN
Posts : 4358 Join date : 2008-11-01 Age : 65 Location : KENT
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:16 am | |
| Xhosa I agree. Celia was an unsung heroine. She helped track down items for me many times.
Admin Sorry. I forgot that you like it all to be in English. I should have pm'd Frederic.
Frederic Isn't Camus good? Years ago I had to read La Peste for my end-of-school exams and was hooked. Pity he died so young. Now, Xhosa, there's a good story and a good storyteller - La peste is based on an outbreak of plague in Oran in the 1940s and the efforts a doctor to contain it - based on fact and turned into fiction. |
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ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:19 am | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- Xhosa
Frederic Isn't Camus good? Years ago I had to read La Peste for my end-of-school exams and was hooked. Pity he died so young. Now, Xhosa, there's a good story and a good storyteller - La peste is based on an outbreak of plague in Oran in the 1940s and the efforts a doctor to contain it - based on fact and turned into fiction. Bonjour Mister Whybra, For me, you have many things in common with Albert CAMUS... Personally, when I was fifteen, i was "hooked" by "Death is my trade" ("La mort est mon métier" / 1952) by Robert Merle. It's also a book based on fact and turned into fiction. It's a novel about the holocaust written from the perspective of a criminel. This book helps me to understand that it is incomprehensible: To be a Commandant of a estermination's camp during the second world war.... I.E: "La peste", certainly an extraordinary novel; there are goods teachers in GB! Cheers Frédéric |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:24 pm | |
| Frederic Not too many things in common with Camus, I hope. I want to live to see my grandchildren!! Re Merle have you read 'Week-end a Zuydcorte' (I think that was the name; I no longer have my copy) - the story of his capture at Dunkerque in 1940. He was interpreter to the BEF and didn't get a place on a boat. It won the Prix Goncourt , my memory is telling me, but I can't be sure. |
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Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:07 pm | |
| Thanks for the heads up on that, a quick search on Abe tells me i can get a hb 1957 for £0.67..will put it on my list which at the mo is only three long, i have read books about the Holocaust, but i read Anotoly Kuznetsov's Babiyar a very long time ago, it just about scared me to death, i still have it, but will never read it again. some things are beyond merely recounting the truth.. |
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ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:41 pm | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- Frederic
Not too many things in common with Camus, I hope. I want to live to see my grandchildren!! Re Merle have you read 'Week-end a Zuydcorte' (I think that was the name; I no longer have my copy) - the story of his capture at Dunkerque in 1940. He was interpreter to the BEF and didn't get a place on a boat. It won the Prix Goncourt , my memory is telling me, but I can't be sure. Mister Whybra, Exactly, "Week-end at Zuydcotte", I have read this booklet when i was young. There is also a French movie (same title), with the French actor Jean-Paul BELMONDO. My grandmother lived at Coudekerque-Branche, a working town, near Dunkerque at the time of the battle. After the battle, she has found British dead soldiers in his garden and one German. She has droped in his puits the German helmet and his blade (i don't know exactly why...) (Unfortunately, my cousins have sold an English helmet found also in the garden several years after the event.) At this time, My grandfather, a railwayman in the civil, a "recalled" in the army fought in Belgique before he was taken prisoner by the Germans. The French army was so disorganised that he had civilian trousers and bullets of a different calibre for his rifle!!! Sad time for the British and the French armies... Cheers I.E: I also hope you live a long long long time (you haven't wrote (yet) your version of the battle of Isandhlwna!!!! ) I insist, you have similitaries with Albert Camus... Cheers Frédéric |
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ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:02 pm | |
| - xhosa2000 wrote:
- Thanks for the heads up on that, a quick search on Abe
tells me i can get a hb 1957 for £0.67..will put it on my list which at the mo is only three long, i have read books about the Holocaust, but i read Anotoly Kuznetsov's Babiyar a very long time ago, it just about scared me to death, i still have it, but will never read it again. some things are beyond merely recounting the truth.. Bonjour Les, You can read a critic in English on this book by an anonymous reader. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] metier-1954-by-robert-merle/ Unfortunately, not a hope for the humanity... Cheers Frédéric |
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6pdr
Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:23 pm | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- Celia is coming in to the museum for a couple of days a week.
Ah, that's good to hear! She was the one who tracked down both my errant orders. Also, it pleases me to picture her as Eva Green. |
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ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:44 pm | |
| He? Who are you talking about? |
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Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:22 pm | |
| Hello Frederic, many thank's, i will read that before bedtime.. cheers xhosa |
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ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:25 pm | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- He? Who are you talking about?
Eva GREEN, (for me) the daughter of Marlène JAUBERT (his father was Sweddish and not English). Mister Whybra, you don't like French movies!!!! I am afraid we are Amitiés Frédéric |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:39 pm | |
| On the contrary I am a big fan and have a collection of French films. Un homme echappe. Un coeur en hiver. Nelly et M. Arnaud. Monsieur Hire Jean de Florette et Manon des Sources Le chateau de ma mere L'appartement All the Chabrol films. It was the context of Eva and Celia Green that threw me. |
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Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:47 pm | |
| Borsalino.. with Jean Paul and Alain Delon... |
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ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:49 pm | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- On the contrary I am a big fan and have a collection of French films.
Un homme echappe. Un coeur en hiver. Nelly et M. Arnaud. Monsieur Hire Jean de Florette et Manon des Sources Le chateau de ma mere L'appartement All the Chabrol films. It was the context of Eva and Celia Green that threw me. I am a big fan of Marcel Pagnol, in particulary his "souvenirs d'enfance": "La gloire de mon père", "le château de ma mère", "le temps des secrets", "le temps des amours". I have read them 3 or 4 times each! Frédéric |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:51 pm | |
| "La gloire de mon père", "le château de ma mère", these two I have. The others I do not know. I'll seek them out. |
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ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:50 pm | |
| Account from Henderson one of Durnford's own troop commanders.
"If I had known what sort of man Durnford was, I don't think I would have gone with him. He was close to me during most of the fight and he lost his head altogether. In fact I don't think he knew what to do."
Primary source. Not reading between the lines, not in hindsight. And not through memory loss. |
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ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:23 pm | |
| - Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
- Account from Henderson one of Durnford's own troop commanders.
"If I had known what sort of man Durnford was, I don't think I would have gone with him. He was close to me during most of the fight and he lost his head altogether. In fact I don't think he knew what to do."
Primary source. Not reading between the lines, not in hindsight. And not through memory loss. Bonsoir, You are right, it's a primary source (letter d'Alfred to his father). In another post "Col. DURNFORD...Bushman's river pass", you had written: "Another one of Durnfords military fiasco's in which lives were lost uneccessarily and which resulted in him being publicly reviled for his after action conduct - in which he accused his (poorly led) men of cowardice. Come on men who will stand by me! They all died. Sounds so familar doesn't it". George SHESPTONE and Charles RAW are both at Bushman's pass in the the ranks of "the cowards" (your term), the Natal Carbineers. As you know, they were also with him at Isandhlwana (George at the head of his staff). If, as you say, DURNFORD was so "lamentable" at Bushman's pass, why they accepted a commission in his troops 5-6 years later? George SHEPSTONE, the son of Theophilius had no need money. His brother, "Offy" was at the head of the "Natal Carbineers" in 1879. Another brother in another colonial troop (Strange Mounted Rifles from memory?). Personally, i don't know the answer.... Cheers. Frédéric |
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:30 pm | |
| Durnford tried to rally his men by shouting: “WILL NO ONE STAND BY ME THEN?!”
Robert, who replied “I WILL, MAJOR!”, was amongst the five white men who responded to Durnford’s rallying cry and paid for it with his life. Soon a volley of Hlubi fire broke out and the most of the colonial troops under Durnford broke ranks and scrambled to safety down the pass from they had ascended. A second volley from a Hlubi named Jantjie kaSilele killed Robert. Two other Carbineers named trooper Bond and Potterill were shot almost immediately afterward. Two of Durnford’s interpreters, Tlokoas named Katana and Elijah Nkambule were also killed during moments after Robert. Durnford himself was stabbed in the arm but managed to shoot his assailant and escape after the retreating Carbineers. Durnford tried to turn Chieftain around return to the scene of the fighting was stopped by a few other Tlokoas who realised the hopelessness of the situation" |
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ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:36 pm | |
| I have asked the same question to Springbok during the last summer, i am always waiting his answer... (Frank see no offence, it 's just a little provocation after your "ennoblement" by M.S) Cheers Frédéric |
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Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:06 am | |
| [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Back to the point, then I can get back to sleep. |
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90th
Posts : 10912 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Durnford was he capable 2 ? Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:05 am | |
| Hi CTSG I'm not sure if you are wanting to criticise Durnford over his handling of the Bushman's Pass affair , Durnford was basically on a hiding to nothing , he had orders which forbade him to open fire or shoot first ! , he had to wait till he was under fire before he was able to defend himself or his men . The blame for Bushman's Pass should be attributed to whoever issued Durnford with that order , Sir Benjamin Pine ?? (not sure who it was ), whoever issued that order to Durnford , is , in my humble opinion , solely responsible for what transpired . Although the '' order giver ' wasnt there , he's certainly to blame , just because someone isn't present , it doesn't mean they can't , or shouldn't be held accountable ! . Sounds familiar doesnt it ???? Cheers 90th |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:51 am | |
| Xhosa is nevertheless quite right when he wrote: "A primary source is not the holy grail, because it is contemporary does not in itself make it true!" And this is something I am constantly aware of when dealing with sources. The source could be mistaken or biased or for whatever reason a lie. It is (cross-)corroboration of more than one primary source, each with a distinct origin, that lends truth. No doubt, Henderson had his reasons for writing what he did (as did Molife and all the others). The deeper question is why. When that is known, we can then assess the veracity of the statements made. |
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ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:37 am | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- Xhosa is nevertheless quite right when he wrote:
No doubt, Henderson had his reasons for writing what he did (as did Molife and all the others). The deeper question is why. When that is known, we can then assess the veracity of the statements made. Bonjour Mister Whybra, #Three possibilities for me, -it's the truth (for him); -afraid to be taken for a coward; -post traumatic syndrom. Amitiés. Frédéric |
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