WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Incongruouse comment in Curling's letter f 7th April
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyToday at 3:56 pm by Frank Allewell

» John Thomas Beresford, 6th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyToday at 2:59 pm by John Young

» Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyToday at 1:19 pm by John Young

» 6th Baron Vaux of Harrowden
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyToday at 12:44 pm by John Young

» Robert Allin of Neath
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyToday at 9:28 am by rai

» 1051 George McKay, KDG
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyYesterday at 9:31 pm by lfmcgee4

» Natal Mounted Police Casualties around Durnford and Carey
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyYesterday at 8:45 pm by gardner1879

» Robert Chaloner Critchley Long
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyYesterday at 6:25 pm by Eddie

» Louis Calvert - British Actor
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyYesterday at 2:39 pm by Eddie

» Dr. J. C. Pearson
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyYesterday at 10:09 am by rai

» James Mearney, 17th Lancers
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyYesterday at 9:52 am by rai

» CRIMEAN VETERAN'S DEATH, Bob Lawrence - Rifleman
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyYesterday at 9:32 am by rai

» Zulu War Veteran Dead - George Provost
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyYesterday at 9:04 am by rai

» Suicide Attempt - James Hopkins
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyYesterday at 8:29 am by rai

» Private Rashdall Holderness, 91st Regiment of Foot.
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyYesterday at 8:09 am by rai

» Samuel Renton Gardner, 17th Lancers
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptySat Dec 03, 2022 9:05 am by rai

» John Cannell
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptySat Dec 03, 2022 6:57 am by rai

» Captain Watson served with the King's Dragoon Guards
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptySat Dec 03, 2022 6:16 am by rai

» L Company 24th
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 10:45 pm by Eddie

» Captain of Hussars
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 5:37 pm by Eddie

» David Souter Robertson attached 2/21st
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 5:06 pm by Eddie

» Private McNally's Letter
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 1:35 pm by rai

» Ferreira's Horse
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 12:38 pm by Eddie

» W J Bourne
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 12:29 pm by Eddie

» George Middleton
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 11:46 am by rai

» A Jungle Expedition in Prayagraj, India
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 9:06 am by rai

» Old Historian2
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 5:30 am by Eddie

» RORKE'S DRIFT HERO
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 2:58 am by Eddie

»  Corporal E. THOMAS 793 2-24th Foot
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 9:53 pm by harry67

» Forces War Records
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 2:19 pm by harry67

» Private 1698 James Bain 91st Regiment
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 12:08 pm by gardner1879

» James Hudson.
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 9:27 am by rai

» Mr. John Hinshaw
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 8:18 pm by Kenny

» Charles Frederick Murray MacGregor
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 7:09 pm by Eddie

» Symonds Jermyn d'Arcy Travers
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 2:28 pm by rai

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Zulu War Chants (Film Zulu)
Top posters
90th
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
littlehand
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
ADMIN
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
1879graves
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
rusteze
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
John Young
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
gardner1879
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Eddie
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
rai
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
John Young
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
harry67
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
gardner1879
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
Kenny
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
Tig Van Milcroft
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
Bill8183
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
lfmcgee4
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_leftCHELMSFORD and the zulu people BarCHELMSFORD and the zulu people Bar_right 
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Adding to the Library
Durnford was he capable.5
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
2022 john martini George horse Jones Woolfryes james brown smith anstey henry drift Police spalding Prince Russell 24th harford Isandlwana Mounted Durnford Natal payne Roll Franklin
 

 CHELMSFORD and the zulu people

Go down 
4 posters
AuthorMessage
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Empty
PostSubject: CHELMSFORD and the zulu people   CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyWed Jul 22, 2015 2:39 am

Bonsoir à tous,

Ian Knight wrote in “Zulu Rising” about the skirmish at Sihayo’s stronghold the 12 January: (p.216)
“Two of the wounded Zulus were taken back to Rorke’s rift to be treated at the field hospital there, a sop to Lord Chelmsford’s finer feelings; many more must surely have been left among the boulders to live or die without assistance or comfort of any kind”.
Unless I misinterpreted the explanation given by Ian knight, it seems to me that Chelmsford’s clemency was maybe motivated by humanity but certainly also for other reason: “political manipulation” of the Zulu people.

LC wrote to FRERE the 12 January 1879 about the two Zulus wounded:
“(….) I have visited two wounded Zulus who are in our hospital and have seen that they are well looked after – Directly they are well enough I shall let them go that they may tell their friends how the British make war”. (KNIGHT Ian: “The National Army Museum book of the Zulu War” p.78)

At the Sihayo’s stronghold, a number of women and children had been captured by the British.
Just before the attack of the stronghold LC gave this recommendation to Hamiton-Browne: “I shall hold you responsible that no women or children are killed” (HB: “A Lost Legionary in South Africa”)
The prisoners were fed and taken care of, then let’s go the next day. Such clemency was weakness to the native’s way of thinking. (“Black soldiers of the Queen” by P.S Thompson p.40)
“It is the Zulu custom to kill everyone on the spot; prisoners are never taken”. (Mitford: “For the Zulu country”)
In battle, the Zulus made no distinction between their enemy’s soldiers and non combatants; since the days of Shaka it had been common practice to ‘sweep everything clear’, to destroy the enemy in whatever way possible to bring a firm end to a conflict. Non combatants, were in any case, regarded as guilty by association; if they supported an enemy, then they were as legitimate a target as the enemy themselves. (Ian Knight: “Campanion to the Zulu war” p.39)
LC searched the rallying of the tribal leaders, as Gamdana and the two Matyana.
It’s the reason why he was so patient and merciful with Gamdana and his followers.
After 5 five years under the authority of Cetewayo, the Zulus’s Chiefs would welcome the chance to escape the yoke of his tyranny and stay to the more enlightened administration offered by the British.
In other way, Zulu state would fall apart if pressure were applied to his constituent parts. (“Zulu rising” p.230)
In a letter to WOOD, LC wrote the 16 January 1879:”Our first move must therefore be to the Isanblana (sic) hill there is wood and water- I shall from there clear the Equideni (sic) forest or receive the submission of the chiefs and headmen residing in the district (…)”.

Just a thought.

Cheers

Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Empty
PostSubject: Re: CHELMSFORD and the zulu people   CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 1:49 am

it seems to me that both Zulu wounded were taken prisoner by Harford.

HARFORD initially made 5 prisoners.
-One was left in the cave, intransportable given the seriousness of these injuries (testimony of Harford);
- The other 4 have started down the cliff to reach the position of Chelmsford (testimony of Harford).

During the descent, two died (Harford letter to his mother).

Remain two prisoners who survived.

I know no other evidence from the British or the Zulus who mention other warriors (injured or not) who have been captured that day.

For the reasons stated in my previous post on this subject, the survivors hid for fear of being put to death.

After the fight CHELMSFORD gave any instructions to check for wounded enemies (there is no evidence on this subject to my knowledge).

So the prisoners of Harford seem to be the two injured taken to Rorke's Drift hospital.

It seems that their damages were superficial for two reasons:
- (As i wrote in my last post) Chelmsford seemed to have no doubt about their recovery (see the letter to Frere the same day as the attack on the Sihayo stronghold)
-We know that the Two wounded were no longer present at the Rorke's Drift hospital 10 days later

The injured have been brought on the sole initiative of HARFORD not following instructions from CHELMSFORD, I arrive at the following conclusion:

CHELMSFORD took the opportunity that was offered to him by HARFORD using both captives for political purposes.
I recall that it is the day of the skirmish with supporters Sihayo he told to FRERE his intentions about them.
The humanitarian aspect of its decision remains to be demonstrated.

Cheers

Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8377
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Empty
PostSubject: Re: CHELMSFORD and the zulu people   CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 11:48 am

Hi Frederic
I would agree on that, the Zulus in the hospital didn't survive though, I don't have the statement to hand but one of the VC winners mentions their fate.
There is also a number of testimonies as to Lord Chelmsfords character when dealing with the rank and file so he did have compassionate side.

Cheers my friend
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Empty
PostSubject: Re: CHELMSFORD and the zulu people   CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:42 pm

Bonjour Frank,

I wanted to say that the two Zulus were not present at the hospital 10 days later...because they had survived!!!! Very Happy  

I have no knowledge about a account by a VC vinners who mentions their fate before the attack of the 22 January.
I suppose it 's not the testimony by Hook?
'There was only one patient in the room, an auxiliary of the NNC, one of  Prince  mKHUNGO'S iZigqoza who had been wounded in the attack on Sihayo's stronghold, and whose leg was heavily bandaged. (I.E: during the attack of the hospital the 22 January)The patient keep calling out "Take my bandage off, so that i can come!" But it was impossible to do anything except fight, and i blazed away as hard as i could.(From HOOK /« Zulu Rusing » p.502, note 63 p.662 / Source : Hook, account, Royal Magazine).
This native was killed few minutes after by the Zulus in the hospital.
It seems to me that Morris wrote by error thai this native was a zulu warrior, a follower of Sihayo? and not a Native of the NNC.
But this point is not essential...

Of course, you may be right about the humanity of Chelmsford about the Zulus before the disaster of Isandhlwana.
But i don't find any convincing evidences that are not motivated by "political objectives".
Sorry,but if Chelmsford was compassionate with his solders it's not sure at all that he has the same feeling with his enemies.

Thank you very much for your answer.

Cheers

Frédéric








Cheers

Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
rusteze

rusteze


Posts : 2871
Join date : 2010-06-02

CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Empty
PostSubject: Re: CHELMSFORD and the zulu people   CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 2:04 pm

Frederic

Congratulations for starting on an impressive piece of research across a large number of sources.

This is an interesting subject and, like you, I tend to think that LC's desire to care for his wounded captives was so they could be used for political purposes more than for humanitarian reasons. But I do not have the evidence to support that view at the moment and we need to discover more. It might be worth taking a look again at the exchanges between Frere and Chelmsford who, I think, were content to achieve the subjugation of Cetswayo by any means including bringing some of his subjects over to their side if they could.

Keep up the good work.

Steve
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Empty
PostSubject: Re: CHELMSFORD and the zulu people   CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 2:28 pm

Bonjour Steve,

Thank you for your kind words.
i have recently read others evidences in the exchanges between CHELMSFORD and FRERE and others on this subject (the subjugation of Cetewayo by any means).
Cheers
frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
90th

90th


Posts : 10621
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

CHELMSFORD and the zulu people Empty
PostSubject: Chelmsford    CHELMSFORD and the zulu people EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 6:07 pm

Hi Steve
Certainly LC was more than happy to make an attempt on some of the zulu Chiefs to change sides .
90th Salute
Back to top Go down
Online
 
CHELMSFORD and the zulu people
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» The Zulu People. A Selected Bibliography.
» Sir Charles Tucker. The Zulu War (1879) Not alot of people know this
» Anglo-Zulu war as a part of people's childhood memories
» They let the chance slip.
» For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: