WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Louis Calvert - British Actor
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyToday at 11:39 am by Eddie

» Incongruouse comment in Curling's letter f 7th April
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyToday at 10:25 am by Tig Van Milcroft

» Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyToday at 8:08 am by rai

» Dr. J. C. Pearson
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyToday at 7:09 am by rai

» James Mearney, 17th Lancers
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyToday at 6:52 am by rai

» CRIMEAN VETERAN'S DEATH, Bob Lawrence - Rifleman
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyToday at 6:32 am by rai

» Zulu War Veteran Dead - George Provost
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyToday at 6:04 am by rai

» Suicide Attempt - James Hopkins
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyToday at 5:29 am by rai

» Private Rashdall Holderness, 91st Regiment of Foot.
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyToday at 5:09 am by rai

» John Thomas Beresford, 6th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyToday at 4:36 am by rai

» Samuel Renton Gardner, 17th Lancers
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 6:05 am by rai

» Robert Chaloner Critchley Long
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 4:40 am by rai

» John Cannell
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 3:57 am by rai

» Captain Watson served with the King's Dragoon Guards
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 3:16 am by rai

» L Company 24th
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 7:45 pm by Eddie

» Captain of Hussars
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 2:37 pm by Eddie

» David Souter Robertson attached 2/21st
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 2:06 pm by Eddie

» Private McNally's Letter
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 10:35 am by rai

» Ferreira's Horse
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 9:38 am by Eddie

» W J Bourne
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 9:29 am by Eddie

» George Middleton
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 8:46 am by rai

» A Jungle Expedition in Prayagraj, India
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 6:06 am by rai

» Old Historian2
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 2:30 am by Eddie

» RORKE'S DRIFT HERO
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 11:58 pm by Eddie

»  Corporal E. THOMAS 793 2-24th Foot
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 6:53 pm by harry67

» Forces War Records
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 11:19 am by harry67

» Private 1698 James Bain 91st Regiment
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 9:08 am by gardner1879

» James Hudson.
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 6:27 am by rai

» Mr. John Hinshaw
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 5:18 pm by Kenny

» Charles Frederick Murray MacGregor
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 4:09 pm by Eddie

» Symonds Jermyn d'Arcy Travers
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 11:28 am by rai

» Francis S Alcock
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 10:48 am by rai

» Captain Carlos A. Rivers - HMS Shah?
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 8:59 am by rai

» Lieutenant-Colonel McWatters
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 3:10 am by Eddie

» Colonel J. F. Caldwell
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyTue Nov 29, 2022 11:28 am by rai

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Zulu War Chants (Film Zulu)
Top posters
90th
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
littlehand
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
ADMIN
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
1879graves
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
rusteze
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
John Young
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
gardner1879
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
rai
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Eddie
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
harry67
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Kenny
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
John Young
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Tig Van Milcroft
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Bill8183
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
gardner1879
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Adding to the Library
Durnford was he capable.5
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
james smith Russell Prince john Roll Police Durnford 2022 payne George Woolfryes Mounted henry Isandlwana martini harford spalding Natal Franklin drift Jones brown horse 24th anstey
 

 Character of the Men

Go down 
+9
90th
ymob
ADMIN
Frank Allewell
waterloo50
24th
John
rusteze
Martini-Henry
13 posters
Go to page : Previous  1, 2
AuthorMessage
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 10:45 pm

Were there still survivors at Isandlwana late in the afternoon of the 22nd when Chelmsford was waiting for Glyn’s troops to come up and join him before returning to the camp?

Answer by IK on this forum:

"Almost certainly. There are a couple of Zulu references to soldiers either holding out a long time or hiding or playing dead, and only being discovered during the looting which followed the fighting. There are also suggestions that a few individuals from the NNC had managed to slip through the Zulu cordon at some point (probably by passing themselves off as Zulus) and joined Chelmsford on his return. So it’s very likely that there were a few survivors still alive until quite late in the afternoon. It is a sobering thought that they might have been watching Chelmsford come up, and been trying to hold on".

So for IK, only few survivors still alive at the arrival of Chelmsford.
The "timeline" again...
Cheers
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2732
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 66
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 10:47 pm

Frédéric,

Just to correct you and your source W. H. Aynsley's rank was Signalman 1st Class, rather than 'Signaller'.

Littlehand,

There were no Gatling Guns at Khambula, apart from Nyezane the only other battle that the Zulu came under fire from Gatlings was at Ulundi. May be you are confusing Khambula with Ulundi.

John,

Private Johnson in his statement states that Russell was shot, but he doesn't say that he was shot dead. That might account for why Durnford ordered him to go back and fetch him. Just my suggestion.

John Y.

Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 10:56 pm

Bonsoir Mr YOUNG,
Always happy to learn!
Cheers
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
impi

impi


Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 42

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 11:11 pm

John Young wrote:
Frédéric,

Just to correct you and your source W. H. Aynsley's rank was Signalman 1st Class, rather than 'Signaller'.

Littlehand,

There were no Gatling Guns at Khambula, apart from Nyezane the only other battle that the Zulu came under fire from Gatlings was at Ulundi.  May be you are confusing Khambula with Ulundi.

John,

Private Johnson in his statement states that Russell was shot, but he doesn't say that he was shot dead.  That might account for why Durnford ordered him to go back and fetch him.  Just my suggestion.

John Y.


So what we saying Durnford was blind and couldn't see for himself what was unfolding.
He soon moved to the safety of the Camp. Leaving the poor soldier to retreat on foot albeit there was a spare horse.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7077
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 54
Location : Down South.

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 11:32 pm

Thanks John. It's was Ulundi.

Statement by Zulu page 100

click here
Back to top Go down
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 11:43 pm

A question for Frank,

I have just watched your footage 'Isandlwana Younghusbands retreat, at 0:54 you pan your camera towards a point on the mountain and comment that 'after coming down from his last stand against the mountain' at that point in the footage there is a rocky outcrop above a grassed area which I assume is where Younghusband was. My question is, have you managed to take any pictures from that vantage point and how high do you estimate that area to be above the camp?

Many Thanks

Dave
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7077
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 54
Location : Down South.

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 12:24 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8376
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 8:07 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Possibly this may assist. The view from Younghusbands assumed last position across the plain.

A few other areas that could assist in orienting: The road heading of to the plain rosses a line of trees, those mark Durnfords donga. To the left is a small village, when on the battlefield that village is invisible and occupies the position 90th refered to some time ago as being a dead area that one of the forward companies advanced out of the line to get a clear shot into.
The cairns on the battlefield mark the progress of the battle from the firing line up towards the saddle, to the right and of camera.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 9:07 am

Frank,

That is a great help.

Many Thanks

Dave/Waterloo
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 9:47 pm

Frank,
Many thanks for the photography.

About the "timeline" (Charge of Younghusband / arrival of Chelmsford).

According to Ian Knight (p. 446 / Zulu rising):
"The long afternoon passed. All firing had long since stopped at Isandlwana and dark smudges on the slopes of the iNyoni escarpment suggested that the Zulus were now retiring.
"Towards evening", said Browne "i saw a small body of horsemen riding towards us. On using my glasses i discovered that it was the General and his staff and i at once mounted and rode to meet him".
After the meeting with Chelmsford, HB said to him "the camp has been taken Sir " and "the camp was taken at about 1.30 PM" (Zulu rising p.446)
So, according to Ian Knight and Hamilton-Browne, the fightings at Isandhlwana had been ceased long before the arrival of Chelmsford:Younghusband could not have seen the arrival of Chelmsford force before his charge.

In another statement (Paton: "Historical record..."p.237), Chelmsford with Hamilton-BROWNE met Lonsdale.... about 3.30 PM (Hill of the Sphinx p.51)!!!

Cheers
Frédéric

Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8376
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 2:10 am

Hi Frederic.
I don't have access to the library at present but we are back to the notorious time gaps and discrepancies again.
There is a Zulu statement that puts the last fighting as a group of men on the mountain slopes and one on the saddle. And of course the statement that one of the Zulus watched as the column advanced to the camp.
There is also the Zulu statement that puts the fighting as extending to late in the afternoon.
Then of course the issue with Lonsdale blundering into the camp and making haste to meet up with Brown etc.
It was still full daylight when Chelmsford and his mounted men reached Brown and advanced towards the stream and then waited for his column to arrive.
Sorry about the lack of direction above but I shall be able to put names and estimates to all the above as soon as Im back in Cape Town, or maybe Im just daydreaming again? Very Happy
In the meantime Im sure you will with your normal diligence be able to beat me to it.

Regards mon ami Salute
Back to top Go down
Dave

Dave


Posts : 1604
Join date : 2009-09-21

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 3:39 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Possibly this may assist. The view from Younghusbands assumed last position across the plain.

A few other areas that could assist in orienting: The road heading of to the plain rosses a line of trees, those mark Durnfords donga. To the left is a small village, when on the battlefield that village is invisible and occupies the position 90th refered to some time ago as being a dead area that one of the forward companies advanced out of the line to get a clear shot into.
The cairns on the battlefield mark the progress of the battle from the firing line up towards the saddle, to the right and of camera.

Cheers

The memorials on the lower ground in the distance,would those chaps have been fighting or dead at the time Younghusband was making his way along the ridge.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8376
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 4:58 pm

Hi Dave
Always difficult to bring the battle down to individual time frames but my guess would be they had already been over run.
They are the furthest points from the mountain so would have been Popes men and possibly Porteous on retreat.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 10:19 pm

Bonsoir Frank,
My first point (I.E: Knight / HB) was against your hypothesis but my second point (3h30 / "Historical record...") was in favor of your case.
Unfortunately (I.E: for me), i have no time presently to study your point of view.
Your hypothesis is challenged not only by knight but also Lock and Quantrill (Zulu Victory).I do not know authors who have advanced the same assumption...
Therefore, your bold theory arouses my interest, i am curious to read your arguments.

I.E: I am agree with you, the "time" given by HB for the arrival of LC is probably wrong.

Amitiés.
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
 
Character of the Men
Back to top 
Page 2 of 2Go to page : Previous  1, 2
 Similar topics
-
» Character Assignation
» The Character of Hook, in the Film Zulu.. a deeper understanding

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: