Latest topics | » The Pictorial World - March 15th 1879![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Yesterday at 1:13 pm by ben2000 » The lost diary of Pvt James Owen![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 25, 2024 12:03 pm by miklew » Last of the 24th at Isandhlwana![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 24, 2024 6:16 pm by John Young » What was the uniform of field marshals/generals in the zulu war?![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Mon Jul 22, 2024 6:53 am by John Young » Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift ![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat Jul 20, 2024 12:17 pm by SRB1965 » Capt. D. 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R.A.)![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 07, 2024 9:30 am by rai » The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN» Any nominal role of G Coy 2/24th regiment ![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:18 am by Wayne » Bassage Diary![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:31 am by Julian Whybra » Prior to Sihayo's Kraal ![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:19 am by 90th » British Fort Locations![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 3:40 am by 90th » Sergeant 1064 Tom Hick / Hicks G Company 2/24th Regiment![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 03, 2024 11:05 am by Julian Whybra » A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Jun 28, 2024 2:31 pm by Mr M. 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New topics | » The Pictorial World - March 15th 1879![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Yesterday at 1:13 pm by ben2000 » The lost diary of Pvt James Owen![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 25, 2024 12:03 pm by miklew » Last of the 24th at Isandhlwana![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 24, 2024 5:53 pm by miklew » What was the uniform of field marshals/generals in the zulu war?![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 21, 2024 12:30 pm by darthvaix » Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift ![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Jul 19, 2024 1:29 pm by SRB1965 » Capt. D. Hayes 1/3rd Regt., NNC![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 17, 2024 10:52 pm by Julian Whybra » The Wrecked Camp![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:51 am by 61MECH » The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN |
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+990th ymob ADMIN Frank Allewell waterloo50 24th John rusteze Martini-Henry 13 posters | |
Author | Message |
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ymob
![ymob](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/237-12.png)
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Character of the Men Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:45 pm | |
| Were there still survivors at Isandlwana late in the afternoon of the 22nd when Chelmsford was waiting for Glyn’s troops to come up and join him before returning to the camp?
Answer by IK on this forum:
"Almost certainly. There are a couple of Zulu references to soldiers either holding out a long time or hiding or playing dead, and only being discovered during the looting which followed the fighting. There are also suggestions that a few individuals from the NNC had managed to slip through the Zulu cordon at some point (probably by passing themselves off as Zulus) and joined Chelmsford on his return. So it’s very likely that there were a few survivors still alive until quite late in the afternoon. It is a sobering thought that they might have been watching Chelmsford come up, and been trying to hold on".
So for IK, only few survivors still alive at the arrival of Chelmsford. The "timeline" again... Cheers |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | John Young
![John Young](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/1461-56.jpg)
Posts : 3256 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Character of the Men Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:47 pm | |
| Frédéric,
Just to correct you and your source W. H. Aynsley's rank was Signalman 1st Class, rather than 'Signaller'.
Littlehand,
There were no Gatling Guns at Khambula, apart from Nyezane the only other battle that the Zulu came under fire from Gatlings was at Ulundi. May be you are confusing Khambula with Ulundi.
John,
Private Johnson in his statement states that Russell was shot, but he doesn't say that he was shot dead. That might account for why Durnford ordered him to go back and fetch him. Just my suggestion.
John Y.
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| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | ymob
![ymob](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/237-12.png)
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Character of the Men Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:56 pm | |
| Bonsoir Mr YOUNG, Always happy to learn! Cheers |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | impi
![impi](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/153-96.jpg)
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Character of the Men Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:11 pm | |
| - John Young wrote:
- Frédéric,
Just to correct you and your source W. H. Aynsley's rank was Signalman 1st Class, rather than 'Signaller'.
Littlehand,
There were no Gatling Guns at Khambula, apart from Nyezane the only other battle that the Zulu came under fire from Gatlings was at Ulundi. May be you are confusing Khambula with Ulundi.
John,
Private Johnson in his statement states that Russell was shot, but he doesn't say that he was shot dead. That might account for why Durnford ordered him to go back and fetch him. Just my suggestion.
John Y.
So what we saying Durnford was blind and couldn't see for himself what was unfolding. He soon moved to the safety of the Camp. Leaving the poor soldier to retreat on foot albeit there was a spare horse. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | littlehand
![littlehand](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/25-59.jpg)
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 55 Location : Down South.
![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Character of the Men Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:32 pm | |
| Thanks John. It's was Ulundi.
Statement by Zulu page 100
click here |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | waterloo50
![waterloo50](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/1473-92.jpg)
Posts : 600 Join date : 2013-09-18 Location : West Country
![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Character of the Men Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:43 pm | |
| A question for Frank,
I have just watched your footage 'Isandlwana Younghusbands retreat, at 0:54 you pan your camera towards a point on the mountain and comment that 'after coming down from his last stand against the mountain' at that point in the footage there is a rocky outcrop above a grassed area which I assume is where Younghusband was. My question is, have you managed to take any pictures from that vantage point and how high do you estimate that area to be above the camp?
Many Thanks
Dave |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | littlehand
![littlehand](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/25-59.jpg)
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 55 Location : Down South.
![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Character of the Men Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:24 am | |
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| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Frank Allewell
![Frank Allewell](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/32-19.jpg)
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Character of the Men Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:07 am | |
| [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Possibly this may assist. The view from Younghusbands assumed last position across the plain. A few other areas that could assist in orienting: The road heading of to the plain rosses a line of trees, those mark Durnfords donga. To the left is a small village, when on the battlefield that village is invisible and occupies the position 90th refered to some time ago as being a dead area that one of the forward companies advanced out of the line to get a clear shot into. The cairns on the battlefield mark the progress of the battle from the firing line up towards the saddle, to the right and of camera. Cheers |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | waterloo50
![waterloo50](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/1473-92.jpg)
Posts : 600 Join date : 2013-09-18 Location : West Country
![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Character of the Men Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:07 am | |
| Frank,
That is a great help.
Many Thanks
Dave/Waterloo |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | ymob
![ymob](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/237-12.png)
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Character of the Men Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:47 pm | |
| Frank, Many thanks for the photography.
About the "timeline" (Charge of Younghusband / arrival of Chelmsford).
According to Ian Knight (p. 446 / Zulu rising): "The long afternoon passed. All firing had long since stopped at Isandlwana and dark smudges on the slopes of the iNyoni escarpment suggested that the Zulus were now retiring. "Towards evening", said Browne "i saw a small body of horsemen riding towards us. On using my glasses i discovered that it was the General and his staff and i at once mounted and rode to meet him". After the meeting with Chelmsford, HB said to him "the camp has been taken Sir " and "the camp was taken at about 1.30 PM" (Zulu rising p.446) So, according to Ian Knight and Hamilton-Browne, the fightings at Isandhlwana had been ceased long before the arrival of Chelmsford:Younghusband could not have seen the arrival of Chelmsford force before his charge.
In another statement (Paton: "Historical record..."p.237), Chelmsford with Hamilton-BROWNE met Lonsdale.... about 3.30 PM (Hill of the Sphinx p.51)!!!
Cheers Frédéric
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| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Frank Allewell
![Frank Allewell](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/32-19.jpg)
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Character of the Men Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:10 am | |
| Hi Frederic. I don't have access to the library at present but we are back to the notorious time gaps and discrepancies again. There is a Zulu statement that puts the last fighting as a group of men on the mountain slopes and one on the saddle. And of course the statement that one of the Zulus watched as the column advanced to the camp. There is also the Zulu statement that puts the fighting as extending to late in the afternoon. Then of course the issue with Lonsdale blundering into the camp and making haste to meet up with Brown etc. It was still full daylight when Chelmsford and his mounted men reached Brown and advanced towards the stream and then waited for his column to arrive. Sorry about the lack of direction above but I shall be able to put names and estimates to all the above as soon as Im back in Cape Town, or maybe Im just daydreaming again? In the meantime Im sure you will with your normal diligence be able to beat me to it. Regards mon ami |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Dave
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Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21
![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Character of the Men Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:39 pm | |
| - Frank Allewell wrote:
- [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Possibly this may assist. The view from Younghusbands assumed last position across the plain.
A few other areas that could assist in orienting: The road heading of to the plain rosses a line of trees, those mark Durnfords donga. To the left is a small village, when on the battlefield that village is invisible and occupies the position 90th refered to some time ago as being a dead area that one of the forward companies advanced out of the line to get a clear shot into. The cairns on the battlefield mark the progress of the battle from the firing line up towards the saddle, to the right and of camera.
Cheers The memorials on the lower ground in the distance,would those chaps have been fighting or dead at the time Younghusband was making his way along the ridge. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Frank Allewell
![Frank Allewell](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/32-19.jpg)
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Character of the Men Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:58 pm | |
| Hi Dave Always difficult to bring the battle down to individual time frames but my guess would be they had already been over run. They are the furthest points from the mountain so would have been Popes men and possibly Porteous on retreat.
Cheers |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | ymob
![ymob](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/237-12.png)
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
![Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Character of the Men Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:19 pm | |
| Bonsoir Frank, My first point (I.E: Knight / HB) was against your hypothesis but my second point (3h30 / "Historical record...") was in favor of your case. Unfortunately (I.E: for me), i have no time presently to study your point of view. Your hypothesis is challenged not only by knight but also Lock and Quantrill (Zulu Victory).I do not know authors who have advanced the same assumption... Therefore, your bold theory arouses my interest, i am curious to read your arguments.
I.E: I am agree with you, the "time" given by HB for the arrival of LC is probably wrong.
Amitiés. Frédéric
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