WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Zulu Dawn:Col Crealock. “Excuse me, my Lord, there's something I must convey to you. I rode along the track down to Rorke's Drift. The sky above is red with fire. Your orders my Lord? Do we move to the drift?”
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Civilian Surgeon W.J. Cobbin
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyToday at 4:00 am by Frank Allewell

» Midshipman Coker photo
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 8:40 pm by ADMIN

» Battle of Rorke's Drift memorabilia
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyTue Jun 15, 2021 12:35 pm by John Young

» Lost Fortifications
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 13, 2021 4:51 pm by Richie Rich

» Isolated Graves in Zululand
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 13, 2021 4:48 pm by Richie Rich

» Melvill and Coghill Victoria Cross query
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 09, 2021 5:52 pm by Kenny

» Isandlwana Bugle
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 09, 2021 2:53 pm by Richie Rich

» Lambert, James Drummond (1835 - 3/3/1905)
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 09, 2021 7:26 am by John Young

» Time capsule back to the sphinx mountain
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyTue Jun 08, 2021 3:25 pm by timothylrose

» Prince Imperial visited
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyTue Jun 08, 2021 1:43 pm by Richie Rich

» Colonel W. P. Collingwood
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 06, 2021 9:03 am by 1879graves

» Edward Provis Wickham Acting Transport Officer during the Zulu War
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 04, 2021 3:36 pm by ADMIN

» Lieutenant G. D. Hayward, Frontier Light Horse
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 04, 2021 3:26 pm by ADMIN

» 1042. Drumr. E. Allam. 57th. Foot.
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 04, 2021 3:03 pm by ADMIN

» (Lieut: R. F. Westmacott. 77th. Foot.)
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 04, 2021 2:39 pm by ADMIN

» Qr. Mr. Sergt. T. Leitch, 1/24th Foot
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 04, 2021 2:33 pm by ADMIN

» 422 Pte. J. Venning. late 1/13th Foot)
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 04, 2021 2:27 pm by ADMIN

» Trumpeter J. J. Horne, Newcastle Mounted Rifles
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 04, 2021 2:04 pm by ADMIN

» Trooper H. Smith NMP Suicide, 27th February, Helpmakaar.
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 04, 2021 12:50 pm by ADMIN

» Troopers E & W Tarboton, Natal Carbineers - Isandlwana
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 04, 2021 12:36 pm by gardner1879

» 36/1434 Pte. J. Hurley, 1/13th Foot
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 02, 2021 5:04 pm by gardner1879

» 389 Pte. J. Chatterton, 1/24th Foot,
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 02, 2021 4:59 pm by gardner1879

» 1509 Pte. C. Mullin, 1/24th Foot,
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 02, 2021 4:51 pm by gardner1879

» Melvill's Revolver Cylinder
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 02, 2021 4:17 pm by WeekendWarrior

» Other Ranks Foreign Service Frock
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 02, 2021 3:00 pm by bllusc

» Videttes flags and signalling
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyMon May 31, 2021 8:21 pm by gardner1879

»  P. C. Van Niekerk B/3rd Cape Yeo.
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyMon May 31, 2021 3:33 am by nitro450

» The engraved narrative is dense with detail, showing British soldiers marching and sprawled dead on the ground
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri May 28, 2021 6:34 pm by ADMIN

» 24th Regiment Pioneers
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyTue May 25, 2021 8:30 pm by WeekendWarrior

» Ian Knight Questions and answers
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyTue May 25, 2021 8:52 am by Frank Allewell

» 2nd Lieut. S. Strong 90th MID for Khambula
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyTue May 25, 2021 8:01 am by 90th

» Word Search Brain Training. All to do with Zulu War. 34 words to find.
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyMon May 24, 2021 8:16 pm by ADMIN

» Stevenson's Horse 1879 medal
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptySat May 22, 2021 2:20 pm by blind pew

» Annie Crisp Bond
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed May 19, 2021 4:57 pm by 1879graves

» Lieutenant Richard Hawes MacCarthy, 2nd/4th Regiment
Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed May 19, 2021 11:25 am by ciroferrara

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Col Sgt Frank Bourne DCM
Top posters
90th
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
littlehand
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
ADMIN
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
1879graves
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
rusteze
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
John
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Richie Rich
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
gardner1879
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
ADMIN
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
John Young
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
90th
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Kenny
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Danny1960
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
1879graves
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
aussie inkosi
Character of the Men - Page 2 Bar_leftCharacter of the Men - Page 2 BarCharacter of the Men - Page 2 Bar_right 
Most active topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable.1
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.5
Durnford was he capable. 4
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Adding to the Library
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
24th Isandlwana drift james Police john martini Franklin Natal payne horse Durnford Prince Russell smith spalding George taylor henry zulu harford melvill carbineers Mounted Woolfryes Forbes
 

 Character of the Men

Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2
AuthorMessage
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 10:45 pm

Were there still survivors at Isandlwana late in the afternoon of the 22nd when Chelmsford was waiting for Glyn’s troops to come up and join him before returning to the camp?

Answer by IK on this forum:

"Almost certainly. There are a couple of Zulu references to soldiers either holding out a long time or hiding or playing dead, and only being discovered during the looting which followed the fighting. There are also suggestions that a few individuals from the NNC had managed to slip through the Zulu cordon at some point (probably by passing themselves off as Zulus) and joined Chelmsford on his return. So it’s very likely that there were a few survivors still alive until quite late in the afternoon. It is a sobering thought that they might have been watching Chelmsford come up, and been trying to hold on".

So for IK, only few survivors still alive at the arrival of Chelmsford.
The "timeline" again...
Cheers
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
John Young

John Young

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 65
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 10:47 pm

Frédéric,

Just to correct you and your source W. H. Aynsley's rank was Signalman 1st Class, rather than 'Signaller'.

Littlehand,

There were no Gatling Guns at Khambula, apart from Nyezane the only other battle that the Zulu came under fire from Gatlings was at Ulundi. May be you are confusing Khambula with Ulundi.

John,

Private Johnson in his statement states that Russell was shot, but he doesn't say that he was shot dead. That might account for why Durnford ordered him to go back and fetch him. Just my suggestion.

John Y.

Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 10:56 pm

Bonsoir Mr YOUNG,
Always happy to learn!
Cheers
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
impi

impi

Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 41

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 11:11 pm

John Young wrote:
Frédéric,

Just to correct you and your source W. H. Aynsley's rank was Signalman 1st Class, rather than 'Signaller'.

Littlehand,

There were no Gatling Guns at Khambula, apart from Nyezane the only other battle that the Zulu came under fire from Gatlings was at Ulundi.  May be you are confusing Khambula with Ulundi.

John,

Private Johnson in his statement states that Russell was shot, but he doesn't say that he was shot dead.  That might account for why Durnford ordered him to go back and fetch him.  Just my suggestion.

John Y.


So what we saying Durnford was blind and couldn't see for himself what was unfolding.
He soon moved to the safety of the Camp. Leaving the poor soldier to retreat on foot albeit there was a spare horse.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7077
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 11:32 pm

Thanks John. It's was Ulundi.

Statement by Zulu page 100

click here
Back to top Go down
waterloo50

waterloo50

Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 11:43 pm

A question for Frank,

I have just watched your footage 'Isandlwana Younghusbands retreat, at 0:54 you pan your camera towards a point on the mountain and comment that 'after coming down from his last stand against the mountain' at that point in the footage there is a rocky outcrop above a grassed area which I assume is where Younghusband was. My question is, have you managed to take any pictures from that vantage point and how high do you estimate that area to be above the camp?

Many Thanks

Dave
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7077
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 12:24 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7770
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 8:07 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Possibly this may assist. The view from Younghusbands assumed last position across the plain.

A few other areas that could assist in orienting: The road heading of to the plain rosses a line of trees, those mark Durnfords donga. To the left is a small village, when on the battlefield that village is invisible and occupies the position 90th refered to some time ago as being a dead area that one of the forward companies advanced out of the line to get a clear shot into.
The cairns on the battlefield mark the progress of the battle from the firing line up towards the saddle, to the right and of camera.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
waterloo50

waterloo50

Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 9:07 am

Frank,

That is a great help.

Many Thanks

Dave/Waterloo
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 9:47 pm

Frank,
Many thanks for the photography.

About the "timeline" (Charge of Younghusband / arrival of Chelmsford).

According to Ian Knight (p. 446 / Zulu rising):
"The long afternoon passed. All firing had long since stopped at Isandlwana and dark smudges on the slopes of the iNyoni escarpment suggested that the Zulus were now retiring.
"Towards evening", said Browne "i saw a small body of horsemen riding towards us. On using my glasses i discovered that it was the General and his staff and i at once mounted and rode to meet him".
After the meeting with Chelmsford, HB said to him "the camp has been taken Sir " and "the camp was taken at about 1.30 PM" (Zulu rising p.446)
So, according to Ian Knight and Hamilton-Browne, the fightings at Isandhlwana had been ceased long before the arrival of Chelmsford:Younghusband could not have seen the arrival of Chelmsford force before his charge.

In another statement (Paton: "Historical record..."p.237), Chelmsford with Hamilton-BROWNE met Lonsdale.... about 3.30 PM (Hill of the Sphinx p.51)!!!

Cheers
Frédéric

Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7770
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 2:10 am

Hi Frederic.
I don't have access to the library at present but we are back to the notorious time gaps and discrepancies again.
There is a Zulu statement that puts the last fighting as a group of men on the mountain slopes and one on the saddle. And of course the statement that one of the Zulus watched as the column advanced to the camp.
There is also the Zulu statement that puts the fighting as extending to late in the afternoon.
Then of course the issue with Lonsdale blundering into the camp and making haste to meet up with Brown etc.
It was still full daylight when Chelmsford and his mounted men reached Brown and advanced towards the stream and then waited for his column to arrive.
Sorry about the lack of direction above but I shall be able to put names and estimates to all the above as soon as Im back in Cape Town, or maybe Im just daydreaming again? Very Happy
In the meantime Im sure you will with your normal diligence be able to beat me to it.

Regards mon ami Salute
Back to top Go down
Dave

Dave

Posts : 1604
Join date : 2009-09-21

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 3:39 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Possibly this may assist. The view from Younghusbands assumed last position across the plain.

A few other areas that could assist in orienting: The road heading of to the plain rosses a line of trees, those mark Durnfords donga. To the left is a small village, when on the battlefield that village is invisible and occupies the position 90th refered to some time ago as being a dead area that one of the forward companies advanced out of the line to get a clear shot into.
The cairns on the battlefield mark the progress of the battle from the firing line up towards the saddle, to the right and of camera.

Cheers

The memorials on the lower ground in the distance,would those chaps have been fighting or dead at the time Younghusband was making his way along the ridge.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7770
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 4:58 pm

Hi Dave
Always difficult to bring the battle down to individual time frames but my guess would be they had already been over run.
They are the furthest points from the mountain so would have been Popes men and possibly Porteous on retreat.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Character of the Men - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 10:19 pm

Bonsoir Frank,
My first point (I.E: Knight / HB) was against your hypothesis but my second point (3h30 / "Historical record...") was in favor of your case.
Unfortunately (I.E: for me), i have no time presently to study your point of view.
Your hypothesis is challenged not only by knight but also Lock and Quantrill (Zulu Victory).I do not know authors who have advanced the same assumption...
Therefore, your bold theory arouses my interest, i am curious to read your arguments.

I.E: I am agree with you, the "time" given by HB for the arrival of LC is probably wrong.

Amitiés.
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
 
Character of the Men
Back to top 
Page 2 of 2Go to page : Previous  1, 2

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: