Latest topics | » The Pictorial World - March 15th 1879![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Yesterday at 1:13 pm by ben2000 » The lost diary of Pvt James Owen![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 25, 2024 12:03 pm by miklew » Last of the 24th at Isandhlwana![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 24, 2024 6:16 pm by John Young » What was the uniform of field marshals/generals in the zulu war?![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Mon Jul 22, 2024 6:53 am by John Young » Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift ![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat Jul 20, 2024 12:17 pm by SRB1965 » Capt. D. 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R.A.)![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 07, 2024 9:30 am by rai » The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN» Any nominal role of G Coy 2/24th regiment ![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:18 am by Wayne » Bassage Diary![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:31 am by Julian Whybra » Prior to Sihayo's Kraal ![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:19 am by 90th » British Fort Locations![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 3:40 am by 90th » Sergeant 1064 Tom Hick / Hicks G Company 2/24th Regiment![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 03, 2024 11:05 am by Julian Whybra » A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Jun 28, 2024 2:31 pm by Mr M. Cooper » Private 25B/279 Henry Sears Bugler E Company 24th Reg. KIA Isandlwana![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:07 pm by gardner1879 » Hamilton Browne's birthday![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:22 am by Julian Whybra » Zulu "Corps"![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:01 pm by Hobbes » Army Pay Department Personnel![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jun 20, 2024 11:49 am by Julian Whybra » Ntshingwayo birth date![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jun 16, 2024 11:37 am by Hobbes » Zibhebhu and Cetshwayo's family![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jun 05, 2024 9:11 pm by Julian Whybra » Smith's Store/Hotel![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jun 05, 2024 6:06 pm by Julian Whybra » Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. ![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Jun 04, 2024 5:20 pm by Julian Whybra » Shaka iLembe![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat Jun 01, 2024 1:27 pm by Jon84 » Bugler 1415 Thomas Finn / Flin 90th Regiment ![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat May 25, 2024 11:28 am by johnman » Inspector-General Evelyn Richard Hugh Pollard![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue May 14, 2024 10:13 am by ADMIN» Alfred Fairlie Henderson photographs.![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat May 11, 2024 8:01 am by Julian Whybra » Fairlie's Native Police![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu May 02, 2024 9:12 pm by Hobbes |
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New topics | » The Pictorial World - March 15th 1879![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Yesterday at 1:13 pm by ben2000 » The lost diary of Pvt James Owen![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 25, 2024 12:03 pm by miklew » Last of the 24th at Isandhlwana![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 24, 2024 5:53 pm by miklew » What was the uniform of field marshals/generals in the zulu war?![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 21, 2024 12:30 pm by darthvaix » Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift ![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Jul 19, 2024 1:29 pm by SRB1965 » Capt. D. Hayes 1/3rd Regt., NNC![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 17, 2024 10:52 pm by Julian Whybra » The Wrecked Camp![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:51 am by 61MECH » The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN |
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| | Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand | |
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Ray63
![Ray63](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/899-82.jpg)
Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05
![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:38 pm | |
| If the decision wasn't made to invade, what would the consequences have been. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | xhosa2000
![xhosa2000](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/2147-96.jpg)
Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24
![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:07 pm | |
| If the decision wasn't made to invade, what would the consequences have been...Ask's Ray.
Confederation!!!. Imperialism, Colonialism.. just look at the politics..responsible government was not on the agenda.. the Zulu were a mere stepping stone in the bigger picture!. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | rusteze
![rusteze](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/134-77.png)
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:37 pm | |
| This is how I would speculate, but of course it may be totally wrong we shall never know.
To my mind you have to ask, why confederation? It is not the same thing as colonialism or imperialism. Confederation had worked well in Canada and it is unsurprising that the British Government initially wanted something similar in South Africa. It had become too expensive for the home government to keep financing the ever expanding colonial presence (who rarely seemed to want to pay for anything themselves). So confederation was seen as a way of ensuring local financial responsibility and alleviating an ever growing tax burden on the British tax payer. Britain had a single strategic need and that was to retain a dockyard and coaling station at the Cape at all costs. It was vital for the true jewel in the crown which was India. But the British were really not keen to pay for anything else.
But there was a huge fly in the ointment and that was the Boers. Frere was not the only significant influence in South Africa, another was Shepstone. Shepstone convinced Frere that the only way that the Transvaal could be brought into an confederation was to annex it. But then of course the British Government became responsible for its defence (more cost). Who were the Boers most concerned about? The Zulu. Boers had encroached on Zulu land more and more and their attitude to the native people left a whole lot to be desired - it was the reason for the Boundary Commission. Shepstone thought he could control Cetshwayo, after all he had crowned him King. Trouble is the Boundary Commission came up with the wrong result for the Boers (three cheers for Anthony Durnford at this point) - hence Frere's and Shepstone's desperation to find an excuse to invade Zululand, in my view largely to appease the Boers and retain a chance of confederation. What would have happened if the invasion hadn't gone ahead is a very good question. The answer depends on how far you want to go with speculation. Disreali's Conservative government would probably have survived - there's a whole load of consequences to that. The Transvaal Boers might have become more demanding and the Transvaal would either have to be garrisoned with large numbers of British troops we could ill afford. Or the first Boer War may just have happened sooner and with a Boer victory even more complete leading, who knows, to an independent rail link from Pretoria to the sea. That would have been a huge threat to British interests at the Cape and our route to India. We would not have let that happen. Or the Zulu may not have put up with much more of the Boer incursions leading to greater attacks on isolated Boer farms to which the British would have had to respond. You could go on.
I'm sure others will have contrary views.
Steve |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | xhosa2000
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Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24
![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:17 am | |
| Very good Steve, not a lot wrong with your reasoning, aside from the speculation at the end!. but still fair enough!. but the very nature of the initial question beg's for speculation..and if this thread continues to its logical conclusion's.. based on fact!!,
why confederation? It is not the same thing as colonialism or imperialism
Why yes they are the same thing!. a common purpose with an ultimate goal, control over the mineral wealth of South Africa!!. Diamond's and Gold....people can dress it up anyhow they like, but history has spoken!, Britain has, had!. to acknowledge it's colonial past.. but the mineral wealth stayed in the hand's of the Imperialist's, to this day. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Ulundi
![Ulundi](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/900-46.png)
Posts : 558 Join date : 2012-05-05
![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:32 am | |
| Sir Theophilus Shepstone was the one who influenced Frere that the Zulu's were a danger to their borders, consequently the ultimatum was issued. Would the Zulu's have carried on with their incursions over the borders ? Would the Zulu's have invaded Natal ? If we hadn't invaded would the Boar wars have happened ? |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | rusteze
![rusteze](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/134-77.png)
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:37 pm | |
| While it is perfectly possible to regard both colonialism and imperialism as morally wrong (although few would have thought so at the time). I cannot see what the moral objection is to confederation. You might say the UK is now a federation, so is the USA, and Canada has continued to develop the approach laid down in the 19th century. So for me they are certainly not all the same thing.
The business about exploiting mineral wealth is interesting and to be honest I am not sure what to conclude. It seems to me that the mineral wealth in South Africa would not have been extracted at all without western technology and expertise. At the same time, it could not have been done without a huge workforce of workers who, without doubt, were exploited terribly. But, as was normal in victorian times, all this was a business undertaking not a government one. The wealth accrued to companies and individuals like Rhodes, who certainly did their best to exploit the situation locally to their business advantage. But the profits did not go to the British government or the Treasury. I think the strategic imperitive for the British government was the paramount need for a staging post to India and not the mineral wealth. Don't forget the British government had no desire to go to war with the Zulu, it was purely locally driven. What government locally really needed (and business interests tended to dominate) was a stable situation and an available workforce. Frere, Shepstone and Chelmsford got that horribly wrong.
Steve |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | xhosa2000
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Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24
![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:48 pm | |
| While it is perfectly possible to regard both colonialism and imperialism as morally wrong (although few would have thought so at the time). I cannot see what the moral objection is to confederation....
Really Steve.. i find your post naive beyond belief!. confederation was NEVER about asking permission, it was first obtained by stealth..The Transvaal and later by force.
it could not have been done without a huge workforce of workers....
Worker's..on the face of it a benign word to describe what was tantamount to slave labour!. the British government was the driving force behind all that was going on till virtually the independence of the union. no.. they did not want the Zulu war.. at that time!! with just to much else going on at the time..but believe it was in the post The events off the late nineteenth century shaped that part of the world till almost the present day.and the british government had its hands all over it. Zulu War, 1st War of independence , the Second War of Independence, The Usuthu Uprisings and The Poll Tax Rebellion of 1906, the British would not bestow responsible government until every other avenue had been exhausted.. the plan was always for the Colonies to finance themselves..
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| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | rusteze
![rusteze](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/134-77.png)
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:08 pm | |
| As no one else is joining in lets agree to disagree.
Steve |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | xhosa2000
![xhosa2000](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/2147-96.jpg)
Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24
![Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:38 pm | |
| Fair enough, but thanks for the conversation. ![Salute](/users/1313/16/75/50/smiles/770175799.gif) xhosa |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | | Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand | |
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