WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Durnfords Donga
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyToday at 2:27 pm by 90th

» Captain of Hussars
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyToday at 1:56 pm by 90th

» Charles Samuel Shepherd Frontier Light Horse
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyToday at 1:45 pm by 90th

» Incongruouse comment in Curling's letter f 7th April
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyToday at 12:56 pm by Frank Allewell

» John Thomas Beresford, 6th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyToday at 11:59 am by John Young

» Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyToday at 10:19 am by John Young

» 6th Baron Vaux of Harrowden
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyToday at 9:44 am by John Young

» Robert Allin of Neath
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyToday at 6:28 am by rai

» 1051 George McKay, KDG
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyYesterday at 6:31 pm by lfmcgee4

» Natal Mounted Police Casualties around Durnford and Carey
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyYesterday at 5:45 pm by gardner1879

» Robert Chaloner Critchley Long
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyYesterday at 3:25 pm by Eddie

» Louis Calvert - British Actor
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyYesterday at 11:39 am by Eddie

» Dr. J. C. Pearson
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyYesterday at 7:09 am by rai

» James Mearney, 17th Lancers
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyYesterday at 6:52 am by rai

» CRIMEAN VETERAN'S DEATH, Bob Lawrence - Rifleman
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyYesterday at 6:32 am by rai

» Zulu War Veteran Dead - George Provost
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyYesterday at 6:04 am by rai

» Suicide Attempt - James Hopkins
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyYesterday at 5:29 am by rai

» Private Rashdall Holderness, 91st Regiment of Foot.
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyYesterday at 5:09 am by rai

» Samuel Renton Gardner, 17th Lancers
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptySat Dec 03, 2022 6:05 am by rai

» John Cannell
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptySat Dec 03, 2022 3:57 am by rai

» Captain Watson served with the King's Dragoon Guards
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptySat Dec 03, 2022 3:16 am by rai

» L Company 24th
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 7:45 pm by Eddie

» David Souter Robertson attached 2/21st
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 2:06 pm by Eddie

» Private McNally's Letter
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 10:35 am by rai

» Ferreira's Horse
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 9:38 am by Eddie

» W J Bourne
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 9:29 am by Eddie

» George Middleton
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 8:46 am by rai

» A Jungle Expedition in Prayagraj, India
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 6:06 am by rai

» Old Historian2
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 2:30 am by Eddie

» RORKE'S DRIFT HERO
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 11:58 pm by Eddie

»  Corporal E. THOMAS 793 2-24th Foot
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 6:53 pm by harry67

» Forces War Records
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 11:19 am by harry67

» Private 1698 James Bain 91st Regiment
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 9:08 am by gardner1879

» James Hudson.
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 6:27 am by rai

» Mr. John Hinshaw
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 5:18 pm by Kenny

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Zulu War Chants (Film Zulu)
Top posters
90th
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
littlehand
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
ADMIN
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
1879graves
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
rusteze
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
John Young
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
gardner1879
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Eddie
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
rai
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
John Young
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
harry67
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
Kenny
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
gardner1879
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
Tig Van Milcroft
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
90th
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
Bill8183
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_leftFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand BarFrere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Bar_right 
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Adding to the Library
Durnford was he capable.5
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
2022 Natal Prince Durnford Jones henry drift Isandlwana brown horse john smith Roll harford Police Woolfryes Russell Franklin George Mounted payne martini 24th james anstey spalding
 

 Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand

Go down 
4 posters
AuthorMessage
Ray63

Ray63


Posts : 706
Join date : 2012-05-05

Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty
PostSubject: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand   Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyWed Sep 28, 2016 6:38 pm

If the decision wasn't made to invade, what would the consequences have been.
Back to top Go down
xhosa2000

xhosa2000


Posts : 1185
Join date : 2015-11-24

Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty
PostSubject: Re: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand   Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyWed Sep 28, 2016 9:07 pm

If the decision wasn't made to invade, what would the consequences have been...Ask's Ray.

Confederation!!!. Imperialism, Colonialism.. just look at the politics..responsible government
was not on the agenda.. the Zulu were a mere stepping stone in the bigger picture!.
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze


Posts : 2871
Join date : 2010-06-02

Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty
PostSubject: Re: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand   Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyWed Sep 28, 2016 11:37 pm

This is how I would speculate, but of course it may be totally wrong we shall never know.

To my mind you have to ask, why confederation? It is not the same thing as colonialism or imperialism. Confederation had worked well in Canada and it is unsurprising that the British Government initially wanted something similar in South Africa. It had become too expensive for the home government to keep financing the ever expanding colonial presence (who rarely seemed to want to pay for anything themselves). So confederation was seen as a way of ensuring local financial responsibility and alleviating an ever growing tax burden on the British tax payer. Britain had a single strategic need and that was to retain a dockyard and coaling station at the Cape at all costs. It was vital for the true jewel in the crown which was India. But the British were really not keen to pay for anything else.

But there was a huge fly in the ointment and that was the Boers. Frere was not the only significant influence in South Africa, another was Shepstone. Shepstone convinced Frere that the only way that the Transvaal could be brought into an confederation was to annex it. But then of course the British Government became responsible for its defence (more cost). Who were the Boers most concerned about? The Zulu. Boers had encroached on Zulu land more and more and their attitude to the native people left a whole lot to be desired - it was the reason for the Boundary Commission. Shepstone thought he could control Cetshwayo, after all he had crowned him King. Trouble is the Boundary Commission came up with the wrong result for the Boers (three cheers for Anthony Durnford at this point) - hence Frere's and Shepstone's desperation to find an excuse to invade Zululand, in my view largely to appease the Boers and retain a chance of confederation. What would have happened if the invasion hadn't gone ahead is a very good question. The answer depends on how far you want to go with speculation. Disreali's Conservative government would probably have survived - there's a whole load of consequences to that. The Transvaal Boers might have become more demanding and the Transvaal would either have to be garrisoned with large numbers of British troops we could ill afford. Or the first Boer War may just have happened sooner and with a Boer victory even more complete leading, who knows, to an independent rail link from Pretoria to the sea. That would have been a huge threat to British interests at the Cape and our route to India. We would not have let that happen. Or the Zulu may not have put up with much more of the Boer incursions leading to greater attacks on isolated Boer farms to which the British would have had to respond. You could go on.

I'm sure others will have contrary views.

Steve
Back to top Go down
xhosa2000

xhosa2000


Posts : 1185
Join date : 2015-11-24

Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty
PostSubject: Re: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand   Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyThu Sep 29, 2016 12:17 am

Very good Steve, not a lot wrong with your reasoning, aside from the speculation
at the end!. but still fair enough!. but the very nature of the initial question beg's
for speculation..and if this thread continues to its logical conclusion's.. based on
fact!!
,

why confederation? It is not the same thing as colonialism or imperialism

Why yes they are the same thing!. a common purpose with an ultimate goal, control over the
mineral wealth of South Africa!!. Diamond's and Gold....people can dress it up anyhow they like,
but history has spoken!, Britain has, had!. to acknowledge it's colonial past.. but the mineral
wealth stayed in the hand's of the Imperialist's, to this day.
Back to top Go down
Ulundi

Ulundi


Posts : 558
Join date : 2012-05-05

Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty
PostSubject: Re: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand   Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyThu Sep 29, 2016 8:32 am

Sir Theophilus Shepstone was the one who influenced Frere that the Zulu's were a danger to their borders, consequently the ultimatum was issued. Would the Zulu's have carried on with their incursions over the borders ? Would the Zulu's have invaded Natal ?
If we hadn't invaded would the Boar wars have happened ?
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze


Posts : 2871
Join date : 2010-06-02

Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty
PostSubject: Re: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand   Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyThu Sep 29, 2016 1:37 pm

While it is perfectly possible to regard both colonialism and imperialism as morally wrong (although few would have thought so at the time). I cannot see what the moral objection is to confederation. You might say the UK is now a federation, so is the USA, and Canada has continued to develop the approach laid down in the 19th century.  So for me they are certainly not all the same thing.

The business about exploiting mineral wealth is interesting and to be honest I am not sure what to conclude. It seems to me  that the mineral wealth in South Africa would not have been extracted at all without western technology and expertise. At the same time, it could not have been done without a huge workforce of workers who, without doubt, were exploited terribly. But, as was normal in victorian times,  all this was a business undertaking not a government one. The wealth accrued to companies and individuals like Rhodes, who certainly did their best to exploit the situation locally to their business advantage. But the profits did not go to the British government or the Treasury. I think the strategic imperitive for the British government was the paramount need for a staging post to India and not the mineral wealth. Don't forget the British government had no desire to go to war with the Zulu, it was purely locally driven. What government locally really needed (and business interests tended to dominate) was a stable situation and an available workforce. Frere, Shepstone and Chelmsford got that horribly wrong.

Steve
Back to top Go down
xhosa2000

xhosa2000


Posts : 1185
Join date : 2015-11-24

Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty
PostSubject: Re: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand   Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyThu Sep 29, 2016 7:48 pm

While it is perfectly possible to regard both colonialism and imperialism as morally wrong (although few would have thought so at the time). I cannot see what the moral objection is to confederation....


Really Steve.. i find your post naive beyond belief!. confederation was NEVER about asking
permission, it was first obtained by stealth..The Transvaal and later by force.

it could not have been done without a huge workforce of workers....

Worker's..on the face of it a benign word to describe what was tantamount to slave labour!.
the British government was the driving force behind all that was going on till virtually the
independence of the union. no.. they did not want the Zulu war.. at that time!! with
just to much else going on at the time..but believe it was in the post The events off
the late nineteenth century shaped that part of the world till almost the present day.and
the british government had its hands all over it. Zulu War, 1st War of independence , the
Second War of Independence, The Usuthu Uprisings and The Poll Tax Rebellion of 1906,
the British would not bestow responsible government until every other avenue had been
exhausted.. the plan was always for the Colonies to finance themselves..

Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze


Posts : 2871
Join date : 2010-06-02

Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty
PostSubject: Re: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand   Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyThu Sep 29, 2016 9:08 pm

As no one else is joining in lets agree to disagree.

Steve
Back to top Go down
xhosa2000

xhosa2000


Posts : 1185
Join date : 2015-11-24

Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand Empty
PostSubject: Re: Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand   Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand EmptyThu Sep 29, 2016 10:38 pm

Fair enough, but thanks for the conversation. Salute xhosa
Back to top Go down
 
Frere' s decision to give the go ahead to invade Zululand
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Wrong time to invade Zululand & invade as one.
»  Plan to invade the Zululand...
» Mtonjaneni museum
» Sir Bartle Frere
» What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana?

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: