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» Zibhebhu and Cetshwayo's family
The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyThu May 23, 2024 9:25 pm by Hobbes

» Smith's Store/Hotel
The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyTue May 14, 2024 7:17 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» Zulu "Corps"
The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptySat May 04, 2024 6:50 pm by Hobbes

» 24th Regiment side drum a plea for help
The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyThu May 02, 2024 6:11 pm by General Gordon

» Fairlie's Native Police
The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyThu May 02, 2024 1:01 pm by Hobbes

» The curious tale of Cetshwayo's "gunpowder depot" and an aggressive snake
The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyWed Apr 24, 2024 3:26 pm by Hobbes

» Lieut. B. Pohl, No. 7 Coy 1/3 Natal Native Contingent
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 The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.

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Frank Allewell
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John Young

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyThu Jun 22, 2017 9:09 pm

I have recently acquired this print from The Pictorial World of 15th March 1879.

The engraving was based on a sketch supplied to the newspaper by Lt. William James Fowler, of 'N' Battery, 5th Brigade, Royal Artillery.

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John Young Collection.

Apologies for the quality as the engraving is very large for my scanner and having the resort to other means.

Frankly, I had seen the engraving prior to it being offered to me.

Has anyone seen this engraving before?

John Y.
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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 12:06 am

First time for me John.


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"William James Fowler was born on 21 July 1847, son of George Campbell Fowler, Captain, R.N., of Crookham End, Berkshire. He entered the army as Lieutenant in the Royal Artillery on 15 July 1868, and served in India from January 1869 until January 1874, after which he proceeded to the Cape. He served in the Kaffir War of 1877-78, and in the Zulu War of 1879, with N Battery 5th Brigade, in command of the two guns left on detachment at Fort Evelyn. Fowler was promoted to Captain on 16 August 1879 and continued to serve at the Cape until March 1880. He returned to India once more and served there from May 1881 to September 1884, and from December 1885 until February 1889, having been promoted to Major on 24 February 1885. He became Lieutenant-Colonel on 20 February 1895, and was subsequently on the Staff of the Western Division Artillery, becoming Brevet Colonel on 20 February 1899. He retired exactly one year later and died on 1 September 1918."
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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: The Camp at Isandula 22nd Jan 79   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 12:52 am

I cant remember seeing it previously JY , if Fowler drew it from what he saw he must've been out with LC , as he wasn't an Isandlwana Survivor .
90th
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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 1:11 am

Admin,

Thanks for that detail from his medal sale.

Gary,

Yes he was out with Arthur Harness and two sections of guns from the Battery.

John Y.
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90th

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: The Camp at Isandula 22nd Jan 79   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 5:56 am

Hi JY
Luckily for him !
90th Shocked Joker
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 7:23 am

I haven't see this sketch before, but its the best one i have ever seen.
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90th

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: The Camp at Isandula 22nd Jan 79   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 10:22 am

Was browsing through Ian Knight's ' Brave Men's Blood ' today and lo and behold that picture that JY posted is on page 64 , although its much darker than the picture posted by JY , so obviously I'd seen it but didn't remember , wonder if its any other AZW Publications ? .
90th scratch
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Frank Allewell

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 10:38 am

Interesting 90th, in my copy its on page 57?
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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: The Camp at Isandula 22nd Jan 79   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 10:41 am

Hi Frank
I have the Paperback , is yours the Hard Cover edition ???
90th scratch
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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 10:55 am

Ah mystery solved.
Talking of mysteries and old drawings, Ive been trying to locate a sketch by William Walton of the body of Ntshingwayo kaMahole. Any ideas, anyone?
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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 11:42 am

Frank,

That's that one solved, it obviously hadn't stayed with me.

William Walton provided a number of sketches for the same publication The Pictorial World in 1883/4. The sketch that you are looking for is in the MuseuMAfrica [sic] Lilian Ngoyi St, Newtown, Johannesburg, 2033. Reference W89.

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 12:02 pm

Thanks John
I did have the reference but I was hoping to find a published source with the photo. Its not so much the photo but the hand written title I wanted to confirm.
Regards
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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 12:09 pm

Frank,

It is in Laband's The Atlas of the Later Zulu Wars 1883-1888 page 58, the handwriting appears to read - 'Chinguio led at Rorkes Drift'.

John Y.
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90th

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: The Camp at Isandula 22nd Jan 79   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 12:15 pm

Hi Frank
I wonder if that pic you seek might be in a Laband Book , he did a book on the Later Zulu Wars from memory ? , I don't have it to check , Les might have it , there isn't many books he doesn't have ! .
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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 12:23 pm

90th,

You need to change your name to Lance-Corporal Jones...

JY
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Frank Allewell

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 12:38 pm


That's the sentence I was looking for, a garbling of his name but linking him with RD.

Cheers
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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 1:34 pm

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Frank Allewell

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 5:13 pm

Thank you Les
The reason for the curiosity with the statement is that this drawing was done after Ntshingwayo was killed at the battle of Ondini, 1883 I think. At that point the partition of Zululand had been done and the kingdom split up into 13 units. So by this time the basic outlines of the 1879 campaign where known including who the commanders were. And as history tells us Ntshingwayo was joint commander at iSandlwana not RD. One would have thought that William Walton would have known that !
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John Young

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 5:53 pm

Frank,

I have to agree with you, but Walton may have influenced by his travelling companion, Zibhebhu kaMaphitha in what he wrote. You know they say about victors writing history.

John Y.
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xhosa2000

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyFri Jun 23, 2017 7:46 pm

Thank's Frank. Salute

Cheapest copy on abe book's £20.00.. then it gets silly,
a must have for any one interested in the ' settlement '
of Zululand.. i got a lion in Zululand a week ago but have
yet to crack it.
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Frank Allewell

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptySat Jun 24, 2017 8:18 am

I actually have the book, it was in the box with the rest of Robs collection, most of which I haven't got around to yet.
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xhosa2000

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptySat Jun 24, 2017 12:53 pm

Yes i was aware of Jonathan's list..my comment was aimed
at the forum members in general, should have made that
clearer.
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xhosa2000

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyMon Jul 17, 2017 8:18 pm

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xhosa2000

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyMon Jul 17, 2017 8:47 pm

as the thread started with the camp layout at Isandhlwana. the Churchill print.

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyTue Jul 18, 2017 9:16 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
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What a sad end for the master of Isandlwana
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xhosa2000

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyTue Jul 18, 2017 1:34 pm

Yes indeed!. it is said that Usibebu expressed regret at the death of Tshingwayo,
but as we know a Zulu attack was often without any quarter given.. so the image
above purports to be the only verified one of that old famous general, sketched in
1883 but clearly clean shaven and at odds with the image we have come to accept
like the one below, and even that is misnamed as Cetshwayo.

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyWed Jul 19, 2017 6:49 pm

Another image purporting to be the Zulu Commander.

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SRB1965

SRB1965


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Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyWed Jul 19, 2017 7:29 pm

There seems to be about 4 photos, which look (to my untrained eye) as the same group of people.

Especially of the study posted by Xhosa, yesterday - which seem to have the same 'retainers'/family members and a similar patterned shield

Unfortunately I have not yet sussed out how to post images but a quick search on Google will bring them up

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This seems to be an engraving/sketch based on the group as well (about halfway down the page)

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Cheers

simon
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyWed Jul 19, 2017 10:06 pm

I suppose that in 1883 he could have been clean shaven.. i have just finished reading Wright's
a British lion in Zululand.. the comment from the author which i have heard time and time again,
why! for god's sake was'nt Nshingwayo as the known commander of the stunning Zulu victory
interrogated, questioned. in the many year's after Isandhlwana.. the utter contempt for the fight-
ing quality of the Zulu was squashed flat ( literally ) after Isandhlwana but still the British under-
estimated The Zulu... Intombe, Hlobane ect, how could no one see that the de briefing of the
Zulu high command would have yielded serious intelligence. but no one could be arsed to ask. the
Wright book has changed my opinion of Wolseley completely.
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Frank Allewell

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyThu Jul 20, 2017 4:45 am

Ntshingwayo wasn't included in the original subdivision of Zulu land. All thirteen sections were allocated and the documentation of grant completed. One was then crossed out and Ntshingwayos name added. Ive never managed to trace down the oral history that the two met and the grant wa changed after the meeting. Virtually none of the 'Command Structure' were interviewed though. At least there is no records of any meetings,
One day they may just turn up.
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyThu Jul 20, 2017 7:55 pm

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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 3:05 pm

The caption of this image is a puzzle!. certainly
not named as Nshingwayo!. and the attendant
has been suggested to be Mehlokazulu ka
Sihayo.

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Source. Guy, Shepstone and the Forging of Natal.
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90th

90th


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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: The Camp at Isandula 22nd Jan 79   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 4:49 pm

Hi Les
I'm fairly confident it is Mehlokazulu behind Ntshingwayo .
90th Salute
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John Young

John Young


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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 5:00 pm

Les,

There is an engraving of him in The Graphic 4th October 1879, the title refers to him as Tshingwayo, A Great General. The engraving is indistinct as to which figure he actually is though. However, if you take a look at page 253 of Victoria's Harvest at the photograph titled as Zulu izinduna listen to the fate of their nation..., it is not inconceivable that him numbers in that group as it shows the same event.

John Y.
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1879graves

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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 8:03 pm

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http://zuluwar1879.tribalpages.com
xhosa2000

xhosa2000


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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 9:03 pm

Thank's JY, i have looked at the image till my eyes bug out!
can't see any obvious candidate... the thing is they all look
a bit to young..Tshingwayo was into his seventies. it's very
frustrating, we will probably never know for sure.
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John Young

John Young


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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 9:40 pm

Les,

Are you talking about the engraving or the photograph?

JY
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 9:46 pm

JY, i was looking at your's.. using a loop and a magnifier..
the sketch i find un helpful.. generic looking Zulu's.
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John Young

John Young


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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 10:19 pm

Les,

Try this:

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Zulu Surrender, Ulundi, 1st September 1879
John Young Collection.

There was another photograph of the group, taken from the side which is no longer in my collection.

JY
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 10:57 pm

Hmmm, nice one JY.. now the 1st warrior on the left very
broad and stout and with an obvious commanding presence,
so i have imagined him lying dead at Ondini, it seems to me
he would make ' the right shape '. oh for a time machine and
my digital camera.
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptySat Jul 29, 2017 12:42 pm

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John Young

John Young


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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptySat Jul 29, 2017 7:23 pm

Les,

Just as an aside Nthingwayo's descendant, Dr. Paul Matawele, was on BBC 1 this week in his role as a microbiologist discussing the inferred health issues of refilling plastic water bottles.

At least those at iSandlwana didn't have plastic water bottles.

JY
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptySat Jul 29, 2017 8:52 pm

Well JY Dr. Paul Matawele is doing valuable work for the planet! it's such a hot
topic at the moment.. the amount of plastic in our oceans is absolutely
horrific, i was pleased at the lord's initiative with Nasser, Bumble, and Warnie
giving out the recyclable plastic water bottles, not the Oliver pattern but they
looked something similar...ahem Joker I think at Isandhlwana water was the least
of their problem's.
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


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The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd.   The Camp at Isandula, on the Morning of January 22nd. EmptySat Jul 29, 2017 8:58 pm

And as an aside.. when did we get so namby pamby. Chard
washed his face in a muddy pool of water, hmmm, just as
i type this i recall he went down with fever.. maybe doctor
Paul is spot on.
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