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 Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana

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Drakewood



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Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana Empty
PostSubject: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptySun Jul 16, 2017 4:57 pm

Hi there, I’m new to the forum but have dipped into it on a number of occasions over the years as a guest and have always been amazed at the in-depth knowledge concerning just about any aspect of the Zulu wars posted there.
I have a particular interest in Captain James Faunce Lonsdale III, No.9 Coy. 1/3rd Battalion NNC – (late Sgt., Komgah Troop, Kaffrarian Vol. Rifles) KIA Isandlhwana (cousin of Commandant Rupert La Trobe Lonsdale, 1/3rd Battalion NNC)
I’ve trawled through the forum posts and articles but can’t find anything on young James. I’ve got a pretty good handle on his pedigree (which is terrific militarily from both paternal and maternal great grand parents onwards.
What I’d like to know if possible, is James’ position in or in front of the firing line between Pope & Durnford?? what was the sequence of events involving the three entities; who retired first and what was the consequences of the retirement of Pope and or Durnford on Lonsdale??
I’ve noticed a posting regarding James’ younger brother C.B. (Charles Beaver) Lonsdale, Kaffraian Vol. Rifles (their father was founder Commandant of the unit) which I should imagine indicates either a photograph or a medal but for the life of me, I can’t access the posting. If anyone can enlighten me, I’d be greatly obliged.

Thanks

Drakewood
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1879graves

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Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptySun Jul 16, 2017 6:00 pm

Hi Drakewood

Welcome to the forum.

The only thing I can help with is an engraving from the Graphic 16 August 1879.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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1879graves

1879graves

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Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptySun Jul 16, 2017 6:12 pm

The following come from The South African Military History Society.

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Standing (from the left): Capt F.W. Schermbrucker (Infantry Section) later Colonel and Commandant of the Eastern Amatola Division at Stutterheim; Capt W. Warren (Mounted Section). Dark uniform Jacket. Overalls have a dark stripe down the seams; Capt Cole (Infantry Section). Black braided white tunic; Capt George Gray (Mounted Section); Lieut E.J.Byrne (Infantry Section). Was an Attorney in Kingwilliamstown; Capt Richard Walker (Infantry Section). Became first Mayor of East London; Capt Broster (Infantry Section) Kingwilliamstown; Capt John Cowie (Mounted Section ) of Fort Warden Farm Komgha. Led Komgha Volunteers.

Seated (from the left): Capt J.Sansom (Mounted Section) of Hopewell, Komgha District. Gained honours in the Battle of the Springs; Capt L. Giddy (Artillery Section); Capt Joseph Walker (Artillery Section); Capt James Faunce Lonsdale (Infantry Section). Formerly in the 27th Regiment Inniskilling Fisiliers; Surgeon Capt Charles James Egan (Dr) of Kingwilliamstown (Infantry Section)
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptySun Jul 16, 2017 6:27 pm

Posted by Littlehand:

According to Higginson, Krohn's company was ordered to fall in at about 6 am on the morning of the 22nd, and to march out to the plain in front of the camp where another NNC company (No. 9, 1/3rd NNC, under Captain James Faunce Lonsdale), had been on piquet duty over-night. Krohn's company was to relieve Lonsdale's on piquet duty. However, before Krohn's company could march out, the order was countermanded. Another NNC piquet, this time on the crest of the iNyoni heights to the immediate left of the camp, had reported that Zulus were visible on the heights, and the alarm was sounded. Krohn's men were ordered instead to fall in line in front of their tents, "as the Zulus were reported in sight". As a result, the unfortunate Captain Lonsdale's company remained in front of the camp, and subsequently found themselves incorporated into the front line.
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Drakewood



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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyWed Jul 19, 2017 8:41 pm

Many thanks for your prompt replies and images. With regard to the portrait of young James Lonsdale, I have a very inferior version of the same portrait but the image posted is far superior (with authenticating text). I have recently learned that the original portrait currently hangs on the wall of a distant family member Mrs Susan Lonsdale, living in South Africa.
I appreciate the information explaining the initial placing of James Lonsdale and his Company in relation to Pope and later Durnford but was looking for a smigin more detail than euphemistically ‘absorbed into the line’.
As I’ve said, I’ve trawled through the forum looking for tit-bits to enhance the Jmaes Lonsdale story but have drawn a blank, whereas other Colonials eg Vereker appear much vaunted – perhaps too much watching (and romantizing) of ‘Zulu Dawn’.
It seems rather suprising in that James is very much above the cut of the transient Cape Town Colonial.
As a young man, (20 year old) he rose from Segeant in the Kaffrarian Rifle Volunteers, having fought in the Kaffrarian War. (entitling him to the 77/78 clasp) to Captain NNC.
His father (James Faunce Lonsdale II) was founder Commandant of the Karrarian Rifles
His grandfather (James Faunce Lonsdale I) Capt 38th Foot, was the hero of the siege against the Boers at Congella (Port Natal) in 1842
His great-grandfather (James Lonsdale) Captian 4th Foot - fought in the Helder, the Peninsular and at Waterloo (married Sarak Faunce from an eminent military family – hence the name in the three James’s)
His great-uncle, William Lonsdale actually founded Melbourne, Australia
His cousin Rupert La Trobe Lonsdale (son of William above) Commandant 1/3rd NNC and one of the more contaversial figures at Isandlhwana.

On the Faunce side,
His great uncle was Lt. Col. Edmund Faunce, commanded 2/4th Foot in the Heninsular (Gold Medal)
Another great uncle Major Alured Dodshaw Faunce, C.B. served in the Peninsular and commanded at New Orleans.
Etc., etc., etc.,
Having boringly gone through all that, I still think he’s worth more than ‘absorbed into the line’.

Cheers
Drakewood,

PS. Would still love to find out details of C.B. Lonsdale (James younger brother) posted on the forum about 7 years ago by Mr ‘90’
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyWed Jul 19, 2017 10:04 pm

Hi Drakewood.

I think you have come up against the frustrations of what little we know about the details of Isandhlwana. In fact, Higginson does not say anything about Lonsdale's NNC being "incorporated into the line". I do not know where the above quote originates but I suggest it is just the author's speculation, probably quite reasonable but no more than that. The only other reference to Lonsdale's men by Higginson is them coming in, with soldiers of the 24th, for ammunition. He says this was soon expended. Higginson, who was meant to go out and relieve Lonsdale (but was prevented from doing so by Pulleine) gives no indication of Lonsdale retiring any earlier than Pope. He does say that he had some difficulty with his own NNC still further back from the firing line as the Zulu overshoots began to fall among them.

In my view by far the best account of the NNC Battalions is in Thompson's "Black Soldiers of the Queen".

Steve
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Drakewood



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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptySat Jul 22, 2017 2:54 pm

Hi Steve,
Thanks for you response re James Lonsdale III NNC. I think you may well be right when you use the word ‘frustration’. I’ve been attempting to discover the sequence of events when the Zulu charged his and Pope’s positions for the past 20 years but invariably end up bouncing off the same brick wall!
Someone has recently mentioned a report by a survivor, a Private Malindi of Lonsdale’s No.9 Coy. which I have not heard of previously, which could possibly throw some light on the subject.
Have you ever come across a mention of the report? if so, any ideas where I might get my hands on a copy (preferably on line) – happy to pay any costs involved.
Thanks for the reference to Thompson’s ‘Black Soldiers of the Queen’ but very unfortunately I’m no longer able to read text in a book or on paper– I have a specially adapted computer which enables me to read text, white on black. Pity because I have a very substancial library 90% of which comprises 1st edition Regimental Histories.
Anyway enough of the sob stuff – again many thanks

Cheers

Les Nicoll.
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Frank Allewell

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Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptySat Jul 22, 2017 3:58 pm

Humm for some reason I managed to delete my last post.
Drakewood the Malindi Statement is NAM, 6807-386-8-58
I'm happy to e mail a copy to you, let me have an address.
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Frank Allewell

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Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 7:54 am

Drakewood
Rather than e mail I thought it may be easier for you to read as white on black so Ive typed it out for you.
The notes in brackets are not mine but on the statement itself.

Malindi 1/3rd NNC
I was on outpost duty on the afternoon of the 20th Jan until the commencement of the battle of isandhlwana. We were on the left front of the camp, and during the day of the 21st we advanced to the top of a conical hill in our front, retiring at night beyond the water course which divided us from the camp. On the morning of the 22nd while breakfast was being eaten, our officers told us they had heard of a Zulu army in our neighborhood and ordered us to take our blankets back into camp. On our arrival there we found all the 0xen had been driven up ready to inspan two wagons. We then returned to our position.
(Marginal Note: this was because they were to go to Rorkes’s Drift for supplies)
Shortly afterwards, a mounted troop of Basutos passed us going towards the ridge on the left of the camp, then a troop of Sikalis men rode past, going towards the hill we had been on, on the 21st, and just as they got near to the top they met the advancing Zulus, hen they at once engaged. About this time, the firing began to be general along the ridge and I saw a company of red soldiers advance to the neck where the last spur of Sandhlwana joins the ridge, (about 1 ½ miles from the camp), in the direction in which the Basutos had gone, and I also saw a troop of mounted whites advance between this company and ourselves towards the ridge.
)Marginal Note: This company was destroyed to a man)
I never saw that company again, as immediately afterwards, another company (marginal note: 1/24th?) came up to support us, while we were beginning to fire at the Zulus at about 600 or 700 yds distance.
Sikali’s Mounted men meanwhile were falling back toeards us. The company of red soldiers came up and joined in line with us and fired. We were fighting with the main body and could see the Zulu wings trying to outflank us. The Zulus were advancing in open order at the double, the big guns firing at them from the camp. I did not think the shells did much execution except one which burst in a group of Zulus. The firing along our line was very heavy and the Zulus lost heavily, others always coming on in place of the killed. Our fire (viz. the fir of the company of the 24th and the NNC,) checked those opposite to us but those who were a little out of our line of fire still kept on. Our ammunition failed once but we got fresh from the camp and recommenced firing until the Zulus were within 100yds. We were then ordered to retire, as we were also threatened on our rear by the advancing left of the Zulus, and fell back on camp. Which we did, crossing the water course opposite the camp of the Lt. General. The company of soldiers was with us and on nearing the tents knelt down and commenced firing at the enemy. Belpw them some distance to the left, was another company of more soldiers, also kneeling down and firing. Our Captain now got of his horse and gave it to me, telling me to take it to the ammunition wagons and turning back, (the NNC had at this point evidently run away tho’ the narrator would not say so,) he joined the red soldiers who were firing and I never saw him again. After this I know nothing; the Zulus surrounded us on all sides, and I thought of nothing, save my own escape.


Reading this statement very carefully it gives some very good pointers to exactly where Malindi was in the firing line.

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 9:40 am

Both Thompson and Knight note that Lonsdale's company were isiGqoza men, that is Zulu who had been loyal to Cetshwayo's half brother and had been driven into Natal by Cetshwayo some years earlier. From what I can ascertain from Thompson about the origins of the other NNC companies, Lonsdale's were the only Zulu NNC company in the firing line and I wonder whether their performance was somewhat enhanced because of that. Thompson notes they would have nothing to do with the other NNC companies. Is there any connection between the isiGqoza and the Natal Zulu chief "Goza"?

Steve
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 1:07 pm

Shepstone's Induna, from Shepstone and the forging of Natal.

[img][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 2:53 pm

Without diving through the books, didn't Malindi end up guiding Rider Haggard?
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90th

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PostSubject: Capt James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlwana    Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 3:44 pm

Hi Frank
I don't know if Malindi ever guided Rider , Riders Servant was a chap named Mazooku , I had a quick look but didn't see Malindi mentioned , but as I said it was a quick look .
90th scratch
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 3:48 pm

This is my copy of the image posted by Les.
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And what follows is an excellent paper written by Geof Guy which reveals all about its history! The image is much earlier than I thought  and I think Guy makes clear that Goza had little to do with the isiGqoza company of the 1/3 NNC or any of the hereditary Zulu chiefs - it seems he was something of a confection created by Shepstone for his own purposes.
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Steve


Last edited by rusteze on Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 4:00 pm

Hi Gary
I seem to recall a photo of Malindi kneeling with a rifle in his hand. I can only get to the books later this week, but there was a caption with the photo.

Cheers
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90th

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PostSubject: Capt James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlwana    Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 4:08 pm

Hi Frank
I checked the index of the Rider Haggard book ' Diary Of An African Journey ' Malindi isn't listed .
90th Salute
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 5:10 pm

Frank,

The scout Melinder appears in Richard Harrison's autobiography, photograph precedes page 187, Harrison states on that page he was Drummond's scout. By page 221 his name appears as Malinder.

The photograph also appears in Hill of the Sphinx page 64, by F. W. D. Jackson.

John Y.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 7:24 pm

Cheers Les,

Mine is still uploading to PB.

JY
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 7:38 pm

Hi JY.. seriously ditch pb, ive deleted everything off it.
imgur works every time and its so fast, i just need to
suss out how to scale images down without losing
quality.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 7:45 pm

Les,

I looked at it, but I couldn't see where the img. reference was!

JY
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 8:14 pm

BBCode (message boards & forums)

Salute
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http://zuluwar1879.tribalpages.com
rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 8:19 pm

Fear not! Zuckerberg started just like this.
Steve
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Drakewood



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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyTue Jul 25, 2017 9:07 pm

Frank,
Many thanks for the Malindi Statement and the ‘white/black’ form in which it was presented.
It may sound a bit dramatic but for many years I’ve been able to amass considerable material on James Lonsdale’s family and background, in a sort of abstract form and as I said, never able to nail down the most important, final moments of his life; his final hours have always been ambiguous, smoke and mirrors stuff, with nothing definite. As someone summed it up on this topic recently,‘frustration’!!!
Well Malindi’s description of events, of locations, of movements etc and of having actually spoken to Lonsdale and been given his horse has, in something of a contradiction in terms, brought Lonsdale’s whole final episode to life.
…”Our Captain [Lonsdale] now got off his horse and gave it to me, telling me to take it to the ammunition wagons and turning back, (the NNC had at this point evidently run away though the narrator would not say so,) he [Lonsdale] joined the red soldiers who were firing and I never saw him again”.

Well that’ll do for me…Thanks again.

Drakewood
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyWed May 19, 2021 5:38 am

I for one would be very keen to hear further details on his service in the 27th.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana   Capt. James Faunce Lonsdale III - NNC KIA Isandlhwana EmptyWed May 19, 2021 7:26 am

Mike,

Try looking at The London Gazette:

Ensign to Lieutenant:https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/18326/page/130

Lieutenant to Captain:https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/19640/page/1689l

JY
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