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Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
 
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 The Sphinx Collar Badge

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Tee



Posts : 8
Join date : 2016-07-03

The Sphinx Collar Badge Empty
PostSubject: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyTue Sep 05, 2017 4:02 pm

Hello Members

I'm new to this site though i have been interested in the AZW since a boy. thank you for having me.

I'm asking the question to you about the famous Sphinx collar worn by the 24th in the AZW, i have seen so many different types & variations over the years. some from collections & some being sold by dealers as 24th originals

Even in the Brecon museum the collars are different though most are to the later SWB, some have standing tail, some down, etc etc ?

Can anybody post the diviative pattern worn by the 24th in Zululand 1879 ( Apologies if this already exists on this site )

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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyTue Sep 05, 2017 5:08 pm

Hi Tee and welcome.
Here are three enlargements from the well known B Company on the bank photograph in 1879. Clearly tail down.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Steve
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Tee



Posts : 8
Join date : 2016-07-03

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyTue Sep 05, 2017 5:15 pm

rusteze wrote:
Hi Tee and welcome.
Here are three enlargements from the well known B Company on the bank photograph in 1879. Clearly tail down.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Steve


Thanks for that Steve

Seems a straight forward question but so many different variations ?

So i'm presuming after 1881 and then becoming the SWB the tail was up, now also i have been told that the Sphinx itself of the 24th was male and not female like the later post SWB version ?
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2015-11-24

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyTue Sep 05, 2017 6:57 pm

Here's an actual dog from 1900...tail down.

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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2015-11-24

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyTue Sep 05, 2017 7:08 pm

And this from Fosten...

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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2015-11-24

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyTue Sep 05, 2017 7:11 pm

As you can see, the plate shows the tail up and down.. the tail was up
on the Glengary. cheers Tee. xhosa
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Tee



Posts : 8
Join date : 2016-07-03

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyTue Sep 05, 2017 7:19 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
As you can see, the plate shows the tail up and down.. the tail was up
on the Glengary. cheers Tee.  xhosa

Thank you xhosa2000

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Tee



Posts : 8
Join date : 2016-07-03

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyTue Sep 05, 2017 7:27 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

These are at Brecon for the later post 1881 SWB and so the 24th was different with tail down and looked a little more compressed badge.

Cheers chaps
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2094
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyWed Sep 06, 2017 6:38 am

Les,

There is an awful lot wrong with the Fosten plate.

In my opinion it is not reliable as a point of reference.

JY
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Tee



Posts : 8
Join date : 2016-07-03

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyWed Sep 06, 2017 7:58 am

John Young wrote:
Les,

There is an awful lot wrong with the Fosten plate.

In my opinion it is not reliable as a point of reference.

JY

Hello John

Not a reliable source then John ? please can you explain some of the points that are wrong ?

Regards Tee
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2094
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyWed Sep 06, 2017 10:54 am

Tee,

Let's start with the howler that many illustrators have perpetuated ever since that plate was first produced.

The Colour-Serjeant (left centre figure) is wearing a five-button serge frock, yet on his right arm he is depicted as wearing three gold chevrons, crossed Union Flags surmounted by a crown.  Yet from the period publication Arms & Equipment of British Army in the Clothing section with reference to Colour-serjeants it states: 'On serge frocks and shell jackets three bars of single gold lace surmounted by a gold crown are worn.'

If you take a look at the insignia worn by Frank Bourne or Colour-Serjeant 430 A. Ross, in contemporary photographs taken on campaign or just after, you will note that they are wearing five-button serge frocks with the abbreviated insignia of rank.  Yet in recent years most Colour-Serjeants depicted in many publications or prints are wearing the insignia that was actually worn on the seven-button tunic.  I was discussing that very inaccuracy only the other day in the Museum of the Royal Welsh, Brecon, as they have a modern reproduction of a five-button serge frock which wrongly shows the tunic's insignia.

The officer's blue jacket is depicted with bossed buttons on the double drop loops.  The only regiments to wear bossed buttons on the loops were Rifle Regiments.  The 24th(2nd Warwickshire) Regiment were a Line Infantry regiment and therefore it did not have bossed buttons.

The officer's peaked forage cap appears to have a brass Sphinx and numerals, yet these should be in gold embroidery.

The female section of the officer's waist belt plate that bears the regimental title should be in silver, as should the crown and 24 on the male section.  Rather than all of one colour as in the illustration.  The belt loops and the circular section bearing the crown and numerals should be in gilt.

The other-ranks belt belt bears the word 'REGIMENT' in full, rather than the correct REGT- The letter T is about half the size of REG - which I have tried to illustrate, but the top is level with the other letters.

Again there is an example of the erroneous other-ranks belt buckle on display at Brecon, but at least I know how that came about.

I hope that helps?

Regards,

JY


Last edited by John Young on Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2015-11-24

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyWed Sep 06, 2017 11:11 am

Les,

There is an awful lot wrong with the Fosten plate.

In my opinion it is not reliable as a point of reference.

JY.

Good morning JY.. if you remember i have posted that plate before..
and you gave it short shrift then. i knew as i posted it i was just
' tee ' ing you off! our only true authority on all things uniform and
accoutrements.. i knew you would come through with the fact's..
you always do.
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timothylrose



Posts : 72
Join date : 2013-09-07

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyWed Sep 06, 2017 11:50 am

John - I hope you noticed our Colour Sergeant was badged up correctly from the Regs and the Officers cap badge was bullion too!
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Tee



Posts : 8
Join date : 2016-07-03

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyWed Sep 06, 2017 11:54 am

Mr Young thank you for that

So many mistakes, whats the point of publishing stuff if they don't do the research.

Cheers
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2094
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyWed Sep 06, 2017 12:29 pm

Tim,

I did indeed. By-the-way I am awaiting further reaction from the victorious side. I have heard from the warrior who made the last kill in front the tents, he seemed well pleased with how things went. We need to keep in with him as he is already tasked with planning the 2019 event.

Tee,

The problem for anyone putting pen to paper, or paint to canvas for that matter, if someone initially makes a mistake - albeit inadvertently - then the error becomes perpetuated by subsequent authors or artists. Sadly many works on the subject of the Zulu War include errors, my own books are not exceptions I haste to add. This forum is a means of correcting some of those errors.

Les,

Personally I would like to produce a work on uniforms, weapons and equipment of the campaign, but I rather fear it has been done to death. We'll see once I'm finished with the Crimea and my other distractions.

JY
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Tee



Posts : 8
Join date : 2016-07-03

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyWed Sep 06, 2017 12:39 pm

John

The work may have been done to death but it needs correcting, you are very respected on this subject so a comprehensive book on uniforms & equipment i think would be most welcome.

Cheers

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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2015-11-24

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyWed Sep 06, 2017 2:25 pm

Hey JY.. i agree with Tee.. there is a need for a definitive work, i think
you might have said you believed the studies in military uniforms of
the nineteenth century to be more accurate.. example's below.. and i
know your up to your eyes in research Crimea, mutiny.. so when would
you have the time!. it would be surely be beneficial to troll the archives
of the military museum's before they all disappear, a lot of the uniform's
and accoutrements are still there to be photographed, but the workload
would be prohibitive. it would take a stout heart. the likes of wilkinson -
Latham, Carman, and Featherstone are a bit too simplistic and dated.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2094
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyWed Sep 06, 2017 3:00 pm

Les,

Did you ever think how Simon got the insignia right in his artwork?

JY
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2015-11-24

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyWed Sep 06, 2017 3:17 pm

Hmmm.. You have been around a very long time JY. i have lost
count of the times i have seen you accredited in various work's.
i choose whom i admire for a very good reason. there are to
many ' poseurs ' in the AZW fraternity. i judge everything on the
George Best standard, who's the George Best of whatever... be
it Tennis, Golf, F1, Rugby, AZW historian's ect. nuff said!.
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Kenny



Posts : 396
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyWed Sep 06, 2017 11:10 pm

The Sphinx
The History of the South Wales Borderers Badge

Following the Napoleon’s invasion and occupation of Egypt in 1798, the British Government saw the presence of a large French force in Egypt as a direct threat to Britain’s emerging empire in the Indian sub continent. Although, this threat was largely neutralised by the complete destruction of the French Mediterranean fleet during Admiral Nelson’s victory at the Battle of the Nile. However, there was still a massive well trained and experienced French army based in Egypt that the navy was unable to destroy, therefore in 1799 the British decided to send an army to Egypt.
On 12 March 1801 a British force of 16,000 men landed near to Alexandria. Despite being outnumbered by the French the force was able to successfully consolidate its foothold in Egypt. However, the British had underestimated the sheer number of French troops present in the region and reinforcements were quickly sent for. As a result the 24th Regiment was sent to Egypt, leaving England in June 1801 onboard HMS Monmouth.
The 24th Regiment arrived in Egypt near to the end of the campaign, during which the bulk of the French force had surrendered. The remaining French troops were trapped inside Alexandria. The combined British force began to attack the French forces within the city, with the French rapidly capitulating. Although the 24th Regiment had missed much of the campaign, their presence did contribute to the British victory. All of the regiments that were involved in the 1801 Egyptian campaign received a special campaign honour. This honour allowed a ‘sphinx’ badge or device with ‘Egypt’ written beneath it to be added to the Colours and Regimental accoutrements of regiments who took part in the campaign.
As a result of French expansionism in the Iberian peninsular (Portugal and Spain), the British Government sent an intervention force to Portugal in 1808. This drawn out campaign lasted until 1814 and saw the French expelled from the Iberian peninsular. The 24th Regiment distinguished itself during this campaign and was awarded regimental honours for several battles including Talavera (1809) where the 24th Regiment played a decisive role. All of the regiments that took part in the campaign (including the 24th) were granted the right to include a laurel wreath upon their badges in memory of the men who died in the campaign.
Following the Anglo-Zulu war of 1879, a Wreath of Immortelles (Dried Flowers) was added to the colours of the 24th by Queen Victoria in memory of the regiment’s sacrifices during the conflict and of the bravery of Lieutenants Melvill and Coghill. In July 1881 the 24th (2nd Warwickshire)Regiment of Foot was renamed ‘The South Wales Borderers’. In 1899 a new cap badge was adopted with the Egypt campaign ‘Sphinx’ surrounded by the peninsular campaign laurels wreath, onto which was superimposed the Wreath of Immortelles. This remained the badge of the South Wales Borderers until the introduction of the universal Welsh Brigade capbadge in 1960. It is worth noting that Officers and junior ranks had different ‘Sphinx’ collar badges. Officers had female Sphinxes, whilst junior ranks had male Sphinxes; see if you can notice the difference.
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Tee



Posts : 8
Join date : 2016-07-03

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PostSubject: Re: The Sphinx Collar Badge   The Sphinx Collar Badge EmptyWed Sep 06, 2017 11:31 pm

Thank you Kenny

So in 1879 would the collar sphinx be the same, a male version for junior and female version for officers.

And i presume a male sphinx for the ranks ?
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