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Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
 
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 Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas

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Herbie



Posts : 46
Join date : 2017-11-16
Age : 54
Location : Epsom, Surrey

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PostSubject: Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas   Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas EmptyThu Nov 23, 2017 6:39 pm

Hi, I'm a new member to the forum and thought I'd start off with a question on the Zulu Indunas at Rorke's Drift and whether any members can name any more than I have found? The only good source I have is Ian Knight's Osprey Campaign 41 - Rorkes Drift 1879, that gives the following commanders:

uThulwana: Qethuka kaManqondo (although he appears to have been fighting at Isandlwana with part of the regiment and not at RD)

uDloko: Zibhebhu kaMapitha (although again did not participate at RD due to an injured hand during the pursuit from Isandlwana)

Leaving only Prince Dabulamanzi kaMpande as the only other named Induna I have been able to find who was obviously in command (but by default in the absence of the above I believe)

I'm aware that a report commissioned by Lord Chelmsford in 1878 named a number of Zulu regiments and their indunas. I cant remember who wrote it (Fynn maybe?) but has anyone got a copy and able to name any (more) of the commanders of the uThulwana, uDloko, inDlondlo or iNdluyengwe?

Regards, Phil

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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 805
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Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas   Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas EmptyThu Nov 23, 2017 7:02 pm

Hi,

I have for a while been trying to find out the name of the other Induna, for a wargames project.

He is recorded to have been riding a white horse/pony and was shot off it by a British soldier (maybe Dunbar, but can't remember to be sure). I seem to recall something about him wearing a shawl but may be confused.

As far as I know there were no other senior commanders at RD, though one or two junior ones are mentioned - not by name - one who led a number of charges before being killed.

kaMapaitha, I have read, played on his injury to avoid crossing into Natal, possibly in accordance with the Kings orders.

Sorry can't be more help & welcome to the forum.

Sime
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas   Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas EmptyFri Nov 24, 2017 7:54 am

Qethuka did fight at iSandlwana.
There is evidence that Zibhebhu did cross into Natal and raided farms down towards Elands Kraal for cattle.
Ive looked through JS briefly without coming up with any names.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas   Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas EmptyFri Nov 24, 2017 8:00 am

Sorry should have added that the Zibhebhu proof is in the form of a conversation he had with Gibson.
Cheers
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas   Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas EmptyFri Nov 24, 2017 8:31 am

I will be with several of the descendants of Prince Dabulamanzi kaMpande - one of whom is current keeper of the family’s oral traditions - in two weeks time. I can ask the Princess if she can shed any light on the subject.

An anecdote on the Battle of Ulundi from the family’s oral history was recently published in Ron Lock’s latest book. So you never know what might transpire.

JY
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas   Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas EmptyFri Nov 24, 2017 9:21 am

Well done John, possibly a word in the right ear about the cultural centre. Although the lady in charge is fighting on a few different fronts at present.
Cheers
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas   Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas EmptyFri Nov 24, 2017 9:29 am

Frank,

I’ll drop you an email about this group of the Royal House.

JY
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Herbie



Posts : 46
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Location : Epsom, Surrey

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas   Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas EmptySun Nov 26, 2017 5:50 pm

Awesome John, I didn’t imagine a response like that! Looking forward to hearing what you find out.
Regards Phil
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas   Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas EmptyMon Nov 27, 2017 4:44 pm

Phil,

I’ll keep you posted if the Princess can assist, I have a couple of meetings with her on various matters, so you never know what might transpire.

JY
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Herbie



Posts : 46
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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas   Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas EmptyMon Nov 27, 2017 8:08 pm

I've found the booklet I was referring to: The Zulu Army and Zulu Headmen by Fred B Fynney, the report commissioned in 1878 by Chelmsford and issued to officers before the Zulu campaign I believe. It appears to have been reprinted by the National Army Museum in conjunction with Naval & Military Press.

Does anyone have a copy or know if it's likely to answer my question? It's not a fortune although not really cheap either for a short booklet, but I may buy it anyway.

Phil
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas   Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas EmptyTue Nov 28, 2017 1:48 pm

Herbie
I seem to recall that in the NAM there is a quite large banner/stand with the names of all the commanders from iSandlwana, with the exception of one.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas   Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas EmptyTue Nov 28, 2017 1:54 pm

In fact John Young has a photo of it with the Local, Zulu, Arts and Cultural representative standing next to it.
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Herbie



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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas   Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas EmptyWed Feb 21, 2018 11:44 pm

As mentioned in another post about "The Zulu Army and Zulu Headmen", I got a copy of the booklet from my wife (from the NAM) for Christmas, and now that I've had a chance to look through it I thought I'd post my views on the Zulu Indunas it seems to suggest (to me) to be giving the most evidence for having possibly fought at Rorke's Drift.

There are some 33 Indunas and Headmen listed whose given regiment is one of those who fought at Rorke's Drift (of which 22 were in the uThulwana). Several Zulu princes and cousins of the king are listed (again mostly in the uThulwana) but I've assumed that on the basis that Prince Dabulamanzi kaMpande is known to have been present, it seems unlikely that other princes of equal status would have been present but gone unknown. Although there is of course a good chance that many (or even most) of those listed had served in the regiment in their younger days and had other duties by 1879, there are a few details listed against some of the names which give clues or even "evidence" that they may well have been present at Rorke's Drift.

Those whom the booklet appears to give the most evidence of being most closely linked to the regiments in 1879 (and contrary evidence I have read that they were not present in brackets) are:

Undi Corps
Mnyamane kaNqengelelo - "CO of Undi Corps" (but not present as was Prime Minister of Zululand).
Qethuka kaManqondo - "is 2nd in command of the Undi Corps" Undabakaombi Regt. (but not present at Rorkes Drift as fighting at Isandlwana with part of uThulwana I believe)

uThulwana
Prince Dabulamanzi kaMpande - "was present at the actions of Sandlwana, Rorkes Drift and Ginginlovu".
Ubandamana kaNdhela - "An officer of the uThulwana".
Utafiyiya kaMatangata - "2ic of Right Wing of uThulwana. Killed at Kambula". (NB this entry hand written and hard to read spelling of name)
Somkeli kaMalanda - "An officer of the uThulwana. A first cousin of the King" Listed as a member of the nKonkone, who were incorporated into the uThulwana it appears.
Umzi kaManyosi - "Killed at Isandlwana"

inDlondlo
Umvemve & Sombityana kaUyoto - Both listed as "Petty chiefs under Usirayo" and the only 2 whose regiment is given as the inDlondlo except for Umkosana kaUmvumdhlana who is listed as CO of the Umcityu and killed at Isandlwana.

iNdluyengwe
Pakade kaUngonela - "An officer of the iNdluyengwe. Petty chief under Gausi"

uDhloko
Zibhebhu kaMapitha - "Is the commanding officer of the Udhloko regiment" (but not present at Rorkes Drift due to injured hand at Isandlwana)
Umfanawendhlena kaManzine - "Is second in command of the Udhloko regiment". (age listed as 70 but as his father is listed as CO of nKonkone seems possible that maybe a typo?)

I'd interested to hear anyone else's thoughts on this.

Regards Phil
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SRB1965

SRB1965

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Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas   Rorkes Drift Zulu Indunas EmptyThu Feb 22, 2018 7:58 am

Hi Phil,

Given your research above (and exclusions you note) these seem to be the main candidates if (and its an 'if') Dabulamanzi's mate was one of these (I hope I have got all the cutting and pasting right!):-


1.Ubandamana kaNdhela - "An officer of the uThulwana".

2.Somkeli kaMalanda - "An officer of the uThulwana. A first cousin of the King" Listed as a member of the nKonkone, who were incorporated into the uThulwana it appears.

3.kaManyosi - "Killed at Isandlwana"

4.Umvemve - "Petty chief under Usirayo"

5.Sombityana kaUyoto - "Petty chief under Usirayo"

6.Pakade kaUngonela - "An officer of the iNdluyengwe. Petty chief under Gausi"

7.Umfanawendhlena kaManzine - "Is second in command of the Udhloko regiment". (age listed as 70 but as his father is listed as CO of nKonkone seems possible that maybe a typo?)



I doubt it was 2 because would the death of a relative of the King be mentioned?

Both 4 & 5 are good candidates - Shirayo was local to the area and would possibly be familiar with the area. Horses and horsemanship could be expected because of European influence (just across the river) and they had an axe to grind.

1, 6 and 7 are possibilities - maybe if 7 was not 70.

I have included 3, with this question - was he definitely killed at Isandlwana and not elsewhere on the same day (its just a question, I do not know the sources)

I suppose the next step - is to see if any of the candidates above are mentioned later in the war (or afterwards), as alive and well, so couldn't have been killed at RD - which is hopefully where some of this august body can help out...... Very Happy

Cheers

Simon


Last edited by SRB1965 on Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:25 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I wish I could spell.......)
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