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PostSubject: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptySun Feb 11, 2018 1:30 am

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Leamington Spa Courier 15 October 1920

Any information appreciated.

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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptySun Feb 11, 2018 12:57 pm

I spent some time trying to track this man's identity down without success. Please let me know if YOU come up with anything.
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PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptySun Feb 11, 2018 10:37 pm

Doesn't help much with his identity in the AZW, but he returned to Natal on 20 April 1920 with his wife aboard SS Ingenia. He died on 1 September at Corby Rock, Malongerri Station, Natal. He left £8,772.00 to Robert Walter Bradstreet and Thomas Lee Broome de Bary.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptySun Feb 11, 2018 11:02 pm

Hi Steve

Many thanks for the information. That was a large sum of money back in 1920.

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PostSubject: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary    Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Feb 12, 2018 5:18 am

Andy my boy ....that's a lot of money NOW ! hahahahaha , back in 1920 it's akin to a King's ransom ! . I wonder if the Bradstreet named as a beneficiary is any relation to Captain Robert Bradstreet ..KIA Isandlwana ? ( same Christian name ! ? ) . I can't say I've heard of him , I checked a couple of the usual sources , as no doubt others have done , no luck .
90th Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Feb 12, 2018 9:57 am

90th
Interesting connection. I'll try to follow the Bradstreet up and see if anything emerges.
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PostSubject: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary    Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Feb 12, 2018 10:13 am

Yes , well worth exploring I expect ? .
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Feb 12, 2018 10:13 am

Hi All

Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary married Bessie Marie Louisa Scobie.
Capt. Robert Bradstreet, N.M.R. married a daughter of Dr. Scobie.

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PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Feb 12, 2018 10:15 am

Sounds like he may have been NMR but out with Chelmsford.
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PostSubject: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary    Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Feb 12, 2018 10:27 am

Yes Julian , there's a Trooper Du Barry 1879 Clasp Medal in the Roll of the NMR in Dutton's Book , he's also on the Roll in the Sole book , but just the surname , also no first name initials in Forsyth but is stated to have the Medal with 1879 Clasp .
90th


Last edited by 90th on Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Feb 12, 2018 10:31 am

Great! Well done! At least we now have his name spelt right (providing the Leamington Spa Courier got it right!!).
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Feb 12, 2018 10:32 am

On the 1851 Census, Peter's surname is spelt De Bary.
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Feb 12, 2018 10:34 am

Brilliant. Nailed. Real thanks to both of you.
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PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Feb 12, 2018 10:39 am

Great work everyone, fantastic team work.

Salute

Andy
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptySun Dec 04, 2022 8:08 am

Hi All,
Peter A.H. De Barry is buried in the Old Main Cemetery Dundee, Natal, there is a picture of the grave on the EGGsa gravestone website.
Rai Keynshamlighthorse.
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptySun Dec 04, 2022 12:30 pm

Hi All

Peter Alexander Hayward de Bary born 1843 Warick, Warwickshire, England, son of Richard Brome de Bary and Elizabeth Laetitia Holcombe.
Brother of Anni Isobel (de Bary) Saunders, Richard Lewis De Bary and Elizabeth Laetitia de Bary.
Husband of Bessie Marie Louisa (ne' Scobie) de Bray, married 10 September 1870 Newcastle, Natal, S.A. Bessie died 17th October 1930.
No children listed.
Peter died 1 September 1920 age 77 in S.A.
(Wikitree)


Change of trustee for the Will of Peter, from Robert Walter Bradstreet to Bessie Marie Louisa, ne' Scobie de Bray and Thomas Lee Brome de Bary, who was an existing trustee.
The address at the time was, Kinross, Transvaal, S.A
(Flickr)

Could Robert Walter Bradstreet mentioned here in the trustee issue above, be Captain Bradstreet, Newcastle Mounted Rifles, killed at ISANDLWANA? hence the change of trustee. This may be a good indication that they were related and may have served together.

genenet.org: Found Thomas Lee Brome de Bary and although not listed as a child of Peter's above, and mentioned in the change of trustee above, he is actually his son.

Richard Alexander Hayward de Bary, 4th Mounted Rifles (Umvoti Mounted Rifles) Australian military cemetery, Namibia, 27.02.1915. is his son, mentioned in the newspaper article above.
(southafricawargraves.org).

See: The DeBary Family at Western Hall. Now an hotel.


Last edited by Eddie on Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:50 am; edited 11 times in total (Reason for editing : Add text)
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptySun Dec 04, 2022 1:06 pm

Hi I have added information to paragraph in relation to trustee.
above.
I also had to edit it a few times to add different people and also to change spelling in names, as the newspaper article had Broom and Scobie wrong, when re-read.

Eddie
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Dec 05, 2022 12:29 am

John

My post 12:30 above, second and third paragraphs are what I was referring to on the other thread.
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Dec 05, 2022 2:50 am

Hi all/rusteze

As you can see from my post at 12:30pm above, the trustees of the Will and Testiment of Peter Alexander Hayward de Bary were changed in the 1920's, to remove Bradstreet, maybe because he died at Isandlwana, if it is the same man, and at the meeting, replaced him with Bessie. I don't think this man received any money if I'm right.
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Dec 05, 2022 10:19 am

Eddie,

Sadly Rusteze passed away some time ago.

Charles Robert Bradstreet and R. W. Bradstreet are not one and the same person.  R. W. Bradstreet still appears in the National Archives of South Africa in the late 19th/early 20th centuries.

JY
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Dec 05, 2022 5:05 pm

John

Thank you for that, I noticed a Captain Bradstreet in the list of casualties and thought it may have been the same man.
Obviously this man received the money. I think I seen a link that indicated that Charles Bradstreet was the brother in law to Bessie Scobie through marriage. If that be the case, isn't it strange that Peter de Bary left his money to him. Perhaps, as they did in those days, Bessie went to live with her sister and the money was to sustain their up keep, in the case of his death ??
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Dec 05, 2022 5:48 pm

Eddie,

To try to understand the Natal settler population in the northern Natal region I would recommend The Buffalo Border 1879 by John Laband, P. S. Thompson & Sheila Henderson.  It contains some background material on Captain Robert Bradstreet, Newcastle Mounted Rifles.

I think that you will find that his wife’s maiden name was Scoble, rather than Scobie.  Also see The Graphic page 493, 17th May 1879, for potted biography of Bradstreet.

JY


Last edited by John Young on Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:49 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Apparently erroneous forename removed.)
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Dec 05, 2022 6:00 pm

Thank you John

That's very interesting, and he was brother in law to Bessie, there be another oddity, as all British records have The family spelt SCOBIE not SCOBLE, even the Will and Testiment meeting records her surname as Scobie. Somewhere between moving to S.A the name may have been changed.
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Dec 05, 2022 6:09 pm

John
Just had another look at the surname and it is probably SCOBLE, it depends on where you look, some have it Scobie, some SCOBLE, so probably correct your end.
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Dec 05, 2022 6:21 pm

Eddie,

There are a number of things relating to the Scoble family held in the Pietermaritzburg Repository, including material relating to Bessie.  Just do a search and you will find them.

Also see the Scoble wiki tree https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Scoble-88

What you are seeing as Robert Walker Bradstreet, is actually Robert Waller Bradstreet, the same man I referenced elsewhere as R. W. Bradstreet.

JY
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyMon Dec 05, 2022 9:23 pm

John thank you.

Once again we find names spelt differently. rusteze (RIP) also had him named as Walter.

Had a good look at SCOBLE Wiki, thank you.
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyWed Dec 07, 2022 12:18 pm

John
Can I check something with you. It's rare for you EVER to make a mistake so...
I cannot find any reference to Bradstreet's first name being Charles in any contemporary document. He is always just Robert. His father was called Charles certainly and there have been a couple of authors who have confused father and son. Can I ask you where you got it from?
Thanks.
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyWed Dec 07, 2022 1:30 pm

Julian,

I took it from The Zulu War and the Colony of Natal edited by G. A. Chadwick & E. G. Hobson, and The Buffalo Border 1879, the Anglo-Zulu War in Northern Natal by Laband & Thompson with Sheila Henderson.

I have often wondered if he used simply Robert to differentiate himself from his father.

Just my belief.

JY
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyWed Dec 07, 2022 1:49 pm

John
So all secondary sources then. I think they all borrowed from each other or from an incorrect source or simply confused him with his father. I can't find any mention of a Charles as a first name on any document of his marriage, birth of his daughter, of familial papers (incl. his father's), or on any monument. Can anyone else confirm here?
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyWed Dec 07, 2022 11:51 pm

Hi Julian
Found this is ' Charles ' a perpetual error ? .

https://www.angloboerwar.com/unit-information/216-frontier-wars-units/3686-newcastle-mounted-rifles

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PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyThu Dec 08, 2022 9:25 am

90th
Regrettably I think it is, though I'd be more than happy to be proved wrong.
Note that the medal roll listed states 'Robert Bradstreet' but the writer has added a 'Charles' to the explanatory text but we are never told why. I suspect that the writer has taken it from a contemporary work and never queried it.
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyThu Dec 08, 2022 12:13 pm

By the by it is definitely de Bary and not De, Du, or du.
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyThu Dec 08, 2022 2:08 pm

Hi Julian

Yes, de Bary, Definitely.

As you refer to Charles as the father and Robert Walter never being called by the name Charles, who is the Robert Walter Bradstreet rusteze mentions above receiving the money along with Thomas Lee Brome de Bary?
If Thomas received the money, as mentioned, Bessie also listed as trustee should have received something, as her name replaced Robert Walter Bradstreet at the trustee hearing.

Am I missing something or was there another R W Bradstreet, may be the father who received the money, if the other died at Isandlwana.
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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyThu Dec 08, 2022 3:48 pm

Eddie
I think the posts have inadvertently confused you.
Robert Waller Bradstreet was an East African civilian engineer and was not the same man as, and was not related to, Capt. Robert Bradstreet, NMR.  The latter's father was Charles Robert Bradstreet.
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Eddie




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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyThu Dec 08, 2022 4:18 pm

Julian

There is confusion, at the trustee meeting in my post 12:30pm clearly mentioned the name change being that of Robert Walter Bradstreet. There is no mention of a Robert Waller, even rusteze post lists him as receiving £8,772.00 along with Thomas Lee Brome de Bary.
John mentioned a Robert Waller Bradstreet and according to the trustee meeting it was not this man that had his name removed, it was Robert Walter Bradstreet.
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Julian Whybra




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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyThu Dec 08, 2022 4:48 pm

The same thing applies.
If Peter de Bary died on 1 September 1920 leaving money to Robert Walter Bradstreet, it can hardly be the case that he made his will leaving money to Captain Robert Bradstreet, a man who died 40+ years before, even he subsequently changed Robert Walter's name to Bessie's.

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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyThu Dec 08, 2022 5:32 pm

Julian thanks

He originally did leave his money to Robert Walter Bradstreet.
No he obviously wouldn't leave his money to the Captain, I never said he did, so the question still remains, who is Robert Walter Bradstreet ? Did the solicitor and rusteze somehow get the name wrong? Why did rusteze say it was Robert Walter Bradstreet that received the money I wonder, when clearly it could only have been Bessie or Thomas to receive the money.
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Julian Whybra




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Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary Empty
PostSubject: Re: Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary   Peter Alexander Hayward De Bary EmptyThu Dec 08, 2022 6:08 pm

Eddie
I have pm'd you.
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