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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyToday at 12:55 pm by Frank Allewell

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» Isandlwana, Last Stands
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyToday at 9:13 am by Julian Whybra

» Colour of Lord Chelsmford eyes
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» William De Passey, 17th Lancers.1879.
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyMon Sep 21, 2020 1:20 pm by Frank Allewell

» List of identified bodies at Isandlwana
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyThu Sep 17, 2020 5:30 am by John Young

» Defenders of Rorkes Drift
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyWed Sep 16, 2020 6:47 pm by Digger

» Colour Sgt Anthony Clark Booth, VC.
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyTue Sep 15, 2020 6:47 pm by ADMIN

» Cpl John Lyons
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 7:49 pm by Bill8183

» A Case of Mistaken Identity?
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 11:29 am by John Young

» What happened next
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 10:51 am by Springbok

» Surgeon Espine Charles Ward
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyWed Sep 09, 2020 9:38 am by John Young

» 2nd Lieutenant William Lancelot James, 2nd/4th Regiment.
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyMon Sep 07, 2020 2:41 pm by ADMIN

» Explaining Amabutho in one word??
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyMon Sep 07, 2020 11:49 am by SRB1965

» Non-Combat Casualties - Royal Navy and Royal Marines
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyThu Sep 03, 2020 4:05 pm by Frank Allewell

» Non-Combat Casualties - Royal Artillery
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyWed Sep 02, 2020 8:01 pm by Catiline63

» Colonel William,Egerton Saunders, C.B
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:46 pm by ADMIN

» Lieutenant-Colonel David Campbell Williamson.
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:32 pm by ADMIN

» Brigade Surgeon E. J. Boulton
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» Joseph Walter O’Malley Martin. Assistant Surgeon
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» Quarter-Master William London
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» Surgeon Major Henry Lamb
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» Lieutenant Robert Thomas Graves Lowry
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» Sgt. John Philip Archbell NNC
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 8:43 pm by ADMIN

» Tpr. John Ross Natal Carbineer
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 8:27 pm by ADMIN

» Non-Combat Casualties in Colonial and Native Units
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 11:52 am by Julian Whybra

» Victorian HMS SHAH South Africa Zulu Wars Medal William Morrison Royal Navy
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 5:50 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» South African 1879 Zulu War medal to Corp R Starkey 57th Regiment of Foot
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 3:50 pm by 1879graves

» 2/4th Foot at Hlobane/Kambula
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 4:12 am by 90th

» England's Sons 9th edition
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyWed Aug 26, 2020 6:20 pm by Herbie

» Strange tales from Isandlwana
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptySun Aug 23, 2020 4:25 pm by SRB1965

» Colour - Sergeant George William Mabin
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptySat Aug 22, 2020 5:48 pm by Visitor

» Militaria Sale
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 5:59 pm by Frank Allewell

» Men of the 24th Regiment of Foot - Secunderabad, India 1873
The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 12:48 am by 90th

» Malicious website
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 The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered.

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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2133
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Empty
PostSubject: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered.   The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyTue Apr 24, 2018 12:32 pm

I think I’ve got it, by George I think I’ve got.

Rather than post this in the other posting I thought it worthy of its own post.

The map appears in Isandhlwana, 22nd January, 1879.  A Narrative, Compiled from Official and Reliable Sources. published in London in 1879 by P. S. King, Parliamentary Bookseller, of Canada Buildings, King Street, Westminster, S. W.  The author of the work is Lieut.-Col. Edward Durnford.

Much of the map is as it appeared in 1880 in The South Africa Campaign of 1879, but there are some obvious differences in the text.

Please see below:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Private Collection - not for reproduction elsewhere.

Note the additional text below the words ‘reinforced & retired’ that does not appear in Mac’ & Shad’.  Also note the variation in the line there is no additional block ‘N.N. Horse’ as appears in Mac’ & Shad’.  In 1879 the phrase ‘Md. Natives’ is used in the line rather than ‘N.N. Horse’ as the 1880 version.  1879 version has additional text such as ‘Head Quarters’ and ‘Hospital’.

There are other variations between the maps.  The original is already fragile so I am loath to ask for it to be scanned.

JY


Last edited by John Young on Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Missed a space between Canada & Buildings. JY)
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 848
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 55
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered.   The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyTue Apr 24, 2018 1:15 pm

Hi

Interestingly part of the NNMC retire around the back of Isandlwana. In most versions, they retire down the spur with Mos & Cavaye.

I read something somewhere, on the internet (within the last couple of days) that, some of the NNMC went (back) around the hill to start their recon of the plateau.

Cheers

Sime
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered.   The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyTue Apr 24, 2018 5:30 pm

Excellent John - extremely rare and I would guess probably not seen before by most people (including me). It is certainly the same map which we now have in Mac and Shad, Hallam Parr, Edward Durnford and The Royal Engineers Journal (all with slightly different labelling or typeface). At the moment, I am speculating that the RE Journal published in June 1879 is the earliest appearance, but I do not know the month of issue of ED's Narrative. Both are certainly earlier than Hallam Parr and Mack and Shad. I don't think ED was the map maker, but do think his research is generally beyond reproach. So who was the source? - we are getting tantalisingly close. Finally, and it may just be fanciful, but I do wonder about ED's use of the word "Narrative" in this obscure title which of course was also used as the title to the official history when it was published in 1881. Not a word I would normally associate with an official history. Edward of course fought long and hard to get that official history changed as it relates to Anthony's "orders" - something I believe he achieved in terms of convincing the army, but not of course the politicians (who saw no mileage in it by the 1890's).  

Steve Reinstadtler
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2133
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered.   The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyTue Apr 24, 2018 7:25 pm

Steve,

Edward’s introduction is dated 17th April 1879, so it is feasible his work pre-dates the R.E. Journal.

I agree Edward cannot be the original draughtsman for map, as he was in the U.K. I strongly suspect the map was drawn by an officer of the Royal Engineers, which doesn’t give us too many suspects to examine - just over a handful were in the region at the time.

Sadly due to the binding of the Edward Durnford pamphlet not all of the text is visible, so it cannot established if the map bears a signature.

JY
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered.   The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. EmptyTue Apr 24, 2018 8:25 pm

Here's another twist in the tale. If I didn't know better date wise, I would have said that this is a very strong contender for the source map (or part of it). But Marter did not complete his sketch until 21 May 1879, which is too late for Durnford's pamphlet (unless of course it got inserted after he had written the foreword). This is on the KDG website, but is it really Marter's I wonder?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Steve Reinstadtler
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The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered.   The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Empty

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