Latest topics | » 100,000 posts!Sun Mar 17, 2024 11:14 am by ADMIN» Your favourite line from Zulu or Zulu DawnSat Mar 16, 2024 2:47 pm by jgregory » Zulu Dawn/Zulu - New Immortals Film The Way Forward ?Sat Mar 16, 2024 2:34 pm by jgregory » Badge on 2/60th and 3/60th foreign service helmets Sat Mar 16, 2024 11:05 am by John Young » Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:08 am by Julian Whybra » British rations and moraleMon Mar 11, 2024 11:05 pm by Julian Whybra » Blue Plaque to James Egan, alias Private HaganMon Mar 11, 2024 9:16 pm by ADMIN» A few questions regarding Rorke's Drift and IsandlwanaWed Mar 06, 2024 9:16 pm by Julian Whybra » William J Hoare 24th Regiment??Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:08 pm by Dash » Swinburn Carbine issue in AZWThu Feb 29, 2024 12:53 pm by Rob D » Australians who went to Zululand and fought in the 1879 war.Thu Feb 29, 2024 8:39 am by John Young » Philip Price Thu Feb 29, 2024 7:55 am by Julian Whybra » Alfred Fairlie Henderson Thu Feb 29, 2024 7:47 am by RoryReynolds » August Hammar Letter Dated 6th Jan 1879Thu Feb 22, 2024 8:34 pm by Stefaan » Bearing The Cross by Ken Blakeson | BBC RADIO DRAMA: Ken Blakeson's play tells the story of the Battle of Rorke's Drift and the effect it had on three of the soldiers who fought in it.Wed Feb 21, 2024 10:57 am by Julian Whybra » Letter of officer during Zulu wars.Wed Feb 21, 2024 10:47 am by Julian Whybra » About the second invasionTue Feb 20, 2024 9:14 pm by 90th » Zulu Festival Brecon July 2024Sat Feb 17, 2024 7:35 pm by John Young » Watford band boys killed at iSandlwanaFri Feb 16, 2024 8:26 am by Julian Whybra » Private J. McCrudden 1/13 Foot Sun Feb 11, 2024 3:10 am by 90th » Death of Michael Jayson (Zulu Dawn)Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:55 pm by ADMIN» The anniversary of 22nd January in 2024Thu Feb 08, 2024 3:51 pm by luke1997 » What was the distance?Thu Feb 08, 2024 8:46 am by Stefaan » Mrs Henry HookTue Feb 06, 2024 3:14 pm by Kenny » "With 6 good riflemen"Mon Feb 05, 2024 2:30 pm by Mr M. Cooper » What was G company supposed to do?Sun Feb 04, 2024 9:31 pm by Julian Whybra » Private 1445 Charles Meates 17th Lancers and his brother William WylieFri Feb 02, 2024 10:07 pm by John Young » South Africa Medal With Clasp To Pvt J. Salter 3/60thFri Feb 02, 2024 3:12 pm by Foody » Weatherleys Border Horse FlagThu Feb 01, 2024 9:40 pm by Herbie » Edward Plantagenet Kemeys-TynteTue Jan 23, 2024 10:06 pm by Edjg » How many started?Tue Jan 23, 2024 10:10 am by Julian Whybra » Firing Line formationMon Jan 22, 2024 2:32 pm by Julian Whybra » Why did Maj. Spalding have to go ?Wed Jan 17, 2024 9:40 pm by Stefaan » Grape-shot at close range.Mon Jan 15, 2024 7:42 am by SRB1965 » Books Hlobane & KambulaTue Jan 09, 2024 10:08 am by John Young |
March 2024 | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
---|
| | | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | Calendar |
|
Top posting users this month | |
New topics | » 100,000 posts!Sun Mar 17, 2024 11:14 am by ADMIN» Badge on 2/60th and 3/60th foreign service helmets Fri Mar 15, 2024 8:27 pm by Rob Herrick » British rations and moraleWed Mar 06, 2024 9:24 pm by Hobbes » Alfred Fairlie Henderson Thu Feb 29, 2024 7:47 am by RoryReynolds » Australians who went to Zululand and fought in the 1879 war.Fri Feb 23, 2024 2:23 am by peterfarrell » About the second invasionSat Feb 17, 2024 9:53 pm by Hobbes » Zulu Festival Brecon July 2024Sat Feb 17, 2024 7:35 pm by John Young » Letter of officer during Zulu wars.Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:46 pm by Will M » Bearing The Cross by Ken Blakeson | BBC RADIO DRAMA: Ken Blakeson's play tells the story of the Battle of Rorke's Drift and the effect it had on three of the soldiers who fought in it.Thu Feb 15, 2024 1:24 am by ADMIN |
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
Fair Use Notice | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
| | The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. | |
| | Author | Message |
---|
John Young
Posts : 3229 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:32 pm | |
| I think I’ve got it, by George I think I’ve got. Rather than post this in the other posting I thought it worthy of its own post. The map appears in Isandhlwana, 22nd January, 1879. A Narrative, Compiled from Official and Reliable Sources. published in London in 1879 by P. S. King, Parliamentary Bookseller, of Canada Buildings, King Street, Westminster, S. W. The author of the work is Lieut.-Col. Edward Durnford. Much of the map is as it appeared in 1880 in The South Africa Campaign of 1879, but there are some obvious differences in the text. Please see below: [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Private Collection - not for reproduction elsewhere. Note the additional text below the words ‘reinforced & retired’ that does not appear in Mac’ & Shad’. Also note the variation in the line there is no additional block ‘N.N. Horse’ as appears in Mac’ & Shad’. In 1879 the phrase ‘Md. Natives’ is used in the line rather than ‘N.N. Horse’ as the 1880 version. 1879 version has additional text such as ‘Head Quarters’ and ‘Hospital’. There are other variations between the maps. The original is already fragile so I am loath to ask for it to be scanned. JY
Last edited by John Young on Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Missed a space between Canada & Buildings. JY) |
| | | SRB1965
Posts : 1198 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:15 pm | |
| Hi
Interestingly part of the NNMC retire around the back of Isandlwana. In most versions, they retire down the spur with Mos & Cavaye.
I read something somewhere, on the internet (within the last couple of days) that, some of the NNMC went (back) around the hill to start their recon of the plateau.
Cheers
Sime |
| | | rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:30 pm | |
| Excellent John - extremely rare and I would guess probably not seen before by most people (including me). It is certainly the same map which we now have in Mac and Shad, Hallam Parr, Edward Durnford and The Royal Engineers Journal (all with slightly different labelling or typeface). At the moment, I am speculating that the RE Journal published in June 1879 is the earliest appearance, but I do not know the month of issue of ED's Narrative. Both are certainly earlier than Hallam Parr and Mack and Shad. I don't think ED was the map maker, but do think his research is generally beyond reproach. So who was the source? - we are getting tantalisingly close. Finally, and it may just be fanciful, but I do wonder about ED's use of the word "Narrative" in this obscure title which of course was also used as the title to the official history when it was published in 1881. Not a word I would normally associate with an official history. Edward of course fought long and hard to get that official history changed as it relates to Anthony's "orders" - something I believe he achieved in terms of convincing the army, but not of course the politicians (who saw no mileage in it by the 1890's).
Steve Reinstadtler |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3229 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:25 pm | |
| Steve,
Edward’s introduction is dated 17th April 1879, so it is feasible his work pre-dates the R.E. Journal.
I agree Edward cannot be the original draughtsman for map, as he was in the U.K. I strongly suspect the map was drawn by an officer of the Royal Engineers, which doesn’t give us too many suspects to examine - just over a handful were in the region at the time.
Sadly due to the binding of the Edward Durnford pamphlet not all of the text is visible, so it cannot established if the map bears a signature.
JY |
| | | rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:25 pm | |
| Here's another twist in the tale. If I didn't know better date wise, I would have said that this is a very strong contender for the source map (or part of it). But Marter did not complete his sketch until 21 May 1879, which is too late for Durnford's pamphlet (unless of course it got inserted after he had written the foreword). This is on the KDG website, but is it really Marter's I wonder? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Steve Reinstadtler |
| | | WeekendWarrior
Posts : 268 Join date : 2017-07-21 Location : San Diego, CA
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:39 pm | |
| The repeated mentions of NNH personnel taking a route behind Isandlwana is intriguing. I wonder how Major Marter was present at the May burial expeditions, and I wonder if he based this off of bodies he found near where Shepstone's cairn is today. This seems to be supported by Brickhill who mentions NNH personnel firing from this position, among the rocks. I'm going out on a limb here... but maybe, just maybe there is a possibility that Shepstone rallied with some of the horsemen to hold the route to safety open for a few more precious minutes. |
| | | SRB1965
Posts : 1198 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:02 am | |
| Hi,
When AWD arrived in or near the camp - he sent a troop of NNMC (Wyatt Vause?) back to escort the wagons in.
Four troops of NNMC go out with AWD - two up on to the plateau and two across the eastern plain.
I can't seem to recall what Vause's troop did after it arrived with its wagons - I have made a quick search in my books but can't seem to find them - did they reinforce the 24th in the struggle for the plateau defile (north of the hill)?
Vause survived the battle.....
thanks
Simon |
| | | aussie inkosi
Posts : 426 Join date : 2013-09-16 Age : 58 Location : MELBOURNE
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:23 am | |
| Could it be possible that those who died with Captain George Shepstone could be some of Vause's troop ? |
| | | WeekendWarrior
Posts : 268 Join date : 2017-07-21 Location : San Diego, CA
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:56 pm | |
| So, good question on the possible identity of NNH personnel who Brickhill spotted in the area where Shepstone’s body was found. Here are my thoughts on the matter. C2318 (7FEB79) provides the 27 KIA and 6 WIA for the Amangwane Horse aka Sikali/Zikali Horse. No word on Troop breakdowns, but Davies states this is out of a strength of approx. 157 pax. No. 1 Troop (Raw): approx. 52 pax No. 2 Troop (Roberts): approx. 55 pax No. 3 Troop (Vause): approx. 50 pax However, in his diary Vause also adds that he lost 30 KIA and 10 WIA which is in excess of the numbers reported in C2318 (unless I’m wildly misreading it OR unless additional survivors trickled in, and his diary estimate was wrong- I think this the most likely explanation). In his accounts, it reads as though his Troop remained task/organized up until they reached the road to Rorke’s Drift, finding it occupied by the Zulus. They then started off cross-country but became scattered. Brickhill states that “The only attempts at a stand that I know of were the few that followed the Quarter-Master as already stated, and the Basutos who had a narrow escape of being cut off at the crest, but who came through past the General's tents and who shouted to each other and kept up their fire from a few rocks under Isandhlwana.” I’d suggest that it doesn’t sound like No. 3 Troop was among these NNH personnel, I’d say No. 1 or No. 2 Troop personnel may be a better candidate among the Zikali Horse. Possibly No. 2 as Roberts was killed in action prior to the collapse.
|
| | | 90th
Posts : 10881 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: The Source of the Mackinnon & Shadbolt Map discovered Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:38 am | |
| Hi Weekend Warrior I'm sure you're aware Roberts was seemingly killed by Friendly Artillery fire at the beginning of the battle , as he was making his way from the ridge . 90th |
| | | WeekendWarrior
Posts : 268 Join date : 2017-07-21 Location : San Diego, CA
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:40 am | |
| Quite so, that was what I was getting at in my final sentence. Although I'm curious as to where this kraal was. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10881 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: The Source of the Mackinnon & Shadbolt Map discovered Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:45 am | |
| Hi Weekend Warrior From memory it was on Mkwene as they were returning to the camp ? . 90th |
| | | WeekendWarrior
Posts : 268 Join date : 2017-07-21 Location : San Diego, CA
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:47 am | |
| That would be the target reference point I'd expect... I can't recall seeing it on any contemporary maps. I'll have to check Mainwaring. |
| | | aussie inkosi
Posts : 426 Join date : 2013-09-16 Age : 58 Location : MELBOURNE
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:57 am | |
| Hi Weekend Warrior
So Vause said himself he lost between 30 and 40 thats over half of his No 3 Troop this seems to me it was Vause troops that assisted Shepstone or at the very least many of them, you need to remember the uMcijo regiment ejected a donga full of Basutos this is confirmed by Uguku so you can expect a number of dead in that donga, this happend close to were Roberts became the victim of the guns do you have a breakdown of casualties of all 5 troops Weekend Warrior. Good work. |
| | | aussie inkosi
Posts : 426 Join date : 2013-09-16 Age : 58 Location : MELBOURNE
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:03 am | |
| Also one other thing that is very important what time did Vause's troop arrived at camp can anyone elaborate on this please. |
| | | aussie inkosi
Posts : 426 Join date : 2013-09-16 Age : 58 Location : MELBOURNE
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:07 am | |
| - WeekendWarrior wrote:
- Quite so, that was what I was getting at in my final sentence. Although I'm curious as to where this kraal was.
The Kraal belong to a Zulu by the name of Baza it was located at the foot of Mkwene, and you can find it on Mainwearing map. |
| | | WeekendWarrior
Posts : 268 Join date : 2017-07-21 Location : San Diego, CA
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:13 am | |
| I'll post some notes in full tomorrow, but the official casualty list for all three Troops of the Zikali Horse is less than the number of casualties Vause templated in his diary. This leads me to believe that more of No. 3 Troop survived than the Lt thought when he wrote that entry (ostensibly in the day or two after Isandlwana). Or maybe I'm misreading the casualty roster, I'll humbly admit that possibility! Jackson associates the Amangwane with Zikali.
As for when Vause arrived... he was present for the re-seizure of Mkwene, and then fell back along with Barton, Raw et al. I'll post more detailed notes tomorrow- I'm also trying to timeline this thing. |
| | | WeekendWarrior
Posts : 268 Join date : 2017-07-21 Location : San Diego, CA
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:15 am | |
| And thank you, good call on Mainwaring. Works perfect for N Battery's initial fire mission. |
| | | aussie inkosi
Posts : 426 Join date : 2013-09-16 Age : 58 Location : MELBOURNE
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:25 am | |
| - WeekendWarrior wrote:
- I'll post some notes in full tomorrow, but the official casualty list for all three Troops of the Zikali Horse is less than the number of casualties Vause templated in his diary. This leads me to believe that more of No. 3 Troop survived than the Lt thought when he wrote that entry (ostensibly in the day or two after Isandlwana). Or maybe I'm misreading the casualty roster, I'll humbly admit that possibility! Jackson associates the Amangwane with Zikali.
As for when Vause arrived... he was present for the re-seizure of Mkwene, and then fell back along with Barton, Raw et al. I'll post more detailed notes tomorrow- I'm also trying to timeline this thing. I thought you said above in your previous post Vause in his Diary lost 30 with 10 wounded |
| | | WeekendWarrior
Posts : 268 Join date : 2017-07-21 Location : San Diego, CA
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:26 am | |
| As for the Edendale Horse, I have listed 2 KIA with no wounded and for Hlubi's Basutos 1 KIA. I checked England's Sons and Whybra seems to confirm this. |
| | | WeekendWarrior
Posts : 268 Join date : 2017-07-21 Location : San Diego, CA
| Subject: Re: The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:28 am | |
| Correct. The official returns have 27 KIA for the entire Zikhali Horse. Either the official returns or Vause have to be wrong, and I'm inclined to think Vause overestimated the casualties as his men became 'scattered.' - aussie inkosi wrote:
- WeekendWarrior wrote:
- I'll post some notes in full tomorrow, but the official casualty list for all three Troops of the Zikali Horse is less than the number of casualties Vause templated in his diary. This leads me to believe that more of No. 3 Troop survived than the Lt thought when he wrote that entry (ostensibly in the day or two after Isandlwana). Or maybe I'm misreading the casualty roster, I'll humbly admit that possibility! Jackson associates the Amangwane with Zikali.
As for when Vause arrived... he was present for the re-seizure of Mkwene, and then fell back along with Barton, Raw et al. I'll post more detailed notes tomorrow- I'm also trying to timeline this thing.
I thought you said above in your previous post Vause in his Diary lost 30 with 10 wounded |
| | | | The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered. | |
|
Similar topics | |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |