Are we nearing the end?.

As the world continues to turn in on itself and the righteous pc brigade
goes from strength to strength we are being forced to disown our past
as imperialists and colonialists... i think it right that we continue to examine
the past and place it within the context of the times. i fear in the not to
distant future forum's such as this will be frowned apon and it's member's
looked apon as some sort of xenophobic groupie's. there is even talk of
statues of former luminary's being torn down.

I read only yesterday that there's a budding movement to remove statue's
of Lord Nelson because of his view's on slavery. where will it end.

Hi Les
Yes the trip was excellent , several firsts for me and my guide , mix of weather , ranging from Rain and 9 deg to most days being sunny between 20 - 24 . Where will it end you ask ..... it'll end hopefully when the NORMAL people stand up and say ' Enough is Enough ' , apathy is leading the way for these PC F--K Wits !
90th

It will never end, my friend - these historical people were products of their time and just because 'our' modern views have changed - does it make them now 'wrong' or 'immoral'?

I'm sure many years in the future, people will look at current favourites and decide they were wrong for some view......

As you say the PC brigade have gone mad......

Nice one Gary i looked forward to hearing about it.
Yes Sime agreed.. we need strong people the world over to
speak out and put this nonsense into some kind of perspective.

Somewhat of an uneducated idiot as I may be, I must admit that I feel much the same as xhosa2000.

My feelings are that it will only end when (and if) folk realise that there is actually a lot to be learnt from history and that unless we break the cycle, history will only be repeated.

Since as far back as one an delve, it seems that someone somewhere has also wanted what someone else had. And that is the root of all the fighting both then and now.

In South Africa, it was initially blacks chasing and killing other blacks. Then the white man arrived and done the same thing. In other countries, it was norwegians, spaniards, choose your country and time period and just fill in the blanks.

It will end in tears. I would have said a few years ago, there would be a massive protest if they even thought about removing Nelson. Today I'm not so sure, I'm afraid the English backbone has gone. Very soon  the word "Great" will be forgotten it will just be "Britain"

I'm really quite conflicted about this. There is a tendency to interpret "politically correct" as being about party politics or petty bureaucracy and I agree that is taken too far. But when it is about the suppression of individuals  or the perceived superiority of one race over another then I think it has to be acknowledged. I am afraid that our modern views often quite accurately describe some historic individuals as wrong and immoral and, usually, there were those who thought so at the time. Nothing, in my view,  justifies the slave trade or those who made their fortunes from it. They may have done other things in their lives which we can admire but it cannot displace the enormous wrong that they perpetrated and that we still live with. I am sure no one on this forum thinks otherwise. But sweeping statements about how political correctness is taking over, conceals some real horrors that indeed must never be repeated. I remember doing some research on an AZW officer whose family turned out to be plantation owners in Jamaica - there was a list of names of the men women and children "owned" by this individuals father plus what they might be worth. How many such sons, under the old regimental purchase system, financed themselves from such sources?
And what of the Benin bronzes looted by British troops in West Africa, or works of art from the forbidden city in Peking that now sit in the British Museum or the Louvre? Is it just political correctness to feel they should be returned?
Remove Nelson? It will never happen and nor should it, but teach the history not the myth and let people decide.

There endeth the lesson.

Steve Reinstadtler

In my final few years before retirement I was based in the Admiralty in Whitehall. This marble statue of Nelson is not often seen by the public, it sits in the foyer of the Old Admiralty and I passed it every morning. It is the original of the one which sits on top of his column in Trafalgar Square.
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Steve Reinstadtler

We live in very strange time's do we not?. i have heard the term ' snowflake ' used more and more
to describe the younger generation, if anybody is unaware of the term then please look it up... some
people try to change history to suit modern sensibilities.. it can't be done!.. the event's of history are
beyond our control, did Nelson condone slavery?. did Nelson save this country from invasion.. of
course the two example's are rhetorical, we somehow have to square the circle and as poster's rightly
say we have to acknowledge our colonial past and move forward... the world was then a much more
primitive place and the wealthy elite of the time exploited the world's people's and their wealth
with impunity. yes we must learn from history but there's no point ' crying ' about it, there is no way
the various colonialist's and former imperialist's are going to hand back jack.... be it the Elgin marbles
the Koh-in-noor diamond or anything else of substance.. the younger generation's need to be tought
history ' in the round ' not just the perceived victor's view, let it all be taught... learn the lesson's...forget the blame game and move on in a spirit of reconcilliation.

I agree with most of that.I was once an avid believer in keeping all this stuff - but no longer. Of course the perpetrators cannot give it back but we can, and should. That is the way reconciliation might just work. But there is still a huge gulf, to my mind, between "stuff" and the enslavement of people. There have been times when we have been on the right side of the argument - even in Africa. But generally the prospect of enormous individual wealth has won the day. Yes I have heard of Snowflakes, but I have never met one. My daughter teaches at a College of Further Education and she gives pretty short shrift to anyone who accuses her teenage pupils of being less than hard working and keen to get on - often against the worst personal circumstances. "Snowflake" is a concoction of the popular right wing press - it certainly isn't a reflection of a whole generation.

Steve

Rusteze

There is a lot of rot talked about blame and slavery and guilt.
It should not be forgotten that Africans practised slavery years before the white man arrived on the scene. And when he did, don't forget who it was who captured and sold the slaves to the whites.
Read Barracoon by Zora Neale Hurston (a black authoress) to get a better perspective.

While we're on the subject, let's not forget that 'slavery' (serfdom) ended in Russia only in 1861 (cf. abolition of slavery in Britain 1807). It's all relative. Not that any of this really matters. Slavery was acceptable once everywhere. Now it isn't. You cannot judge the people or mores of the past by 2018 standards. I f we did why there'd be no haloes round the necks of Begin, Mandela, Ho Chi Minh, etc.

Julian

There is a lot of rot talked about most things now that we rely on social media. I am mistrustful of the argument that all sorts of people practised slavery and the further back in history you go the more common it was - so by implication we should accept it as a creature of its time. My view is that whoever did it they were always a powerful elite who were able, through force of arms or deprivation, to enslave either their own or someone else's people at will. The fact that it lasted longer in some places than others is, in my view, neither here nor there. We all know that it still goes on in a variety of ways and I would not give it the oxygen of acceptability - even historically. I remember an episode of "Who do you think you are" when Lenny Henry returned to the plantation in Jamaica where his ancestors were slaves. The rage and helplessness of the man was palpable. We can and do apply our own current values to this practice in the past - we say it was wrong.

I will look out the book.

Steve

rusteze
Whilst broadly-speaking, as a concept, of course we can say 'it was wrong' (or more accurately, 'it is wrong'). The trouble is that the reality in history means that most of our very near ancestors were in some form of subjugation to more powerful classes. My dad was obliged to work unpaid overtime until the mid-70s for fear he would lose his job. My great-granddad was the first male in our family to get the vote (often forgotten that it was 1884/5 amid all the kerfuffle over women's suffrage in 1918). Go back far enough and serfdom was the norm. England was one of the first to rid itself of it so that by Shakespeare's time it had all but vanished (with Europe lagging well behind), which is why we were the first major European power to abolish slavery in our own dominions and then to take on the role of policing against it in the world at large. With slavery the UK has much to celebrate as we were instrumental in ridding the world of it (to our detractors I say compare the dates of the abolition of slavery in the UK and US, compare the dates of black suffrage in the UK and US). Instead we choose to dwell on what existed before. We should be proud of what we did and shout it out loud, not ignoring it and focusing on the negative all the time. We have become too fond of self-flagellation.

In reality, I don't think there is much between us on this. I agree that a few good men and women in Britain forced the powers that be to reluctantly confront their complicity in the misery of slavery. They did that earlier than most and you are right that they then attempted to police the world against it. But the hypocrisy was staggering - huge sums paid in compensation to slave owners, quite substantial support for the slave states in America purely because of financial considerations. The examples you quote show just how all pervasive the consequences for ordinary people have been. I for one don't like the current climate of nationalism which is growing again, and much of the "us and them" dialogue is aimed at exacerbating the situation - now even in Germany. Now is not the time to sit in the glow of empire. Unless of course you are discussing the AZW

Steve

The glow of Empire, eh? Well, we have to have something to warm our hands on...

Not for the faint hearted.

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Brilliant!  "Don't sanitize the world just so you can make yourself look good."  Great.

Far to complex. in Africa the politicians warm their hands by sitting on them.
Some interesting issues arising from KZN.
There is now an official National land distribution programme being actioned, no compensation for expropriation. However the Zulu have rallied around the King and the Ingonyama Trust ( The trust owns around 30% of the ground in Zulu land) and said that Zululand isn't part of the equation and if it is enforced KZN will enforce a declaration of independence from RSA.
So rather than the end is nigh, life is repeating itself.
The saga continues and the AZW may be a future issue rather than past history.

Frank
Very interesting indeed...but might that be KwaZulu-Natal or just the KwaZulu bit??  The good people of PMB and Durban might have a few things to say about UDI.

Fun times ahead in South Africa. History keeps repeating until one learns and stops making the same mistakes.

I have always found it strange/fascinating that Lesotho, is an independent country surrounded by RSA - most countries I can think of have are either adjacent to another one or two countries or have a bit of coastline or are an island (though no doubt someone will point out a load of countries that don't fulfil 'Sime's Criteria').

As for 'learning and stopping making the same mistakes' - I'm not convinced it will ever happen - though I spose it would be nice to make some new mistakes.....to bring a bit of variety to history....

Cheers

Sime

Hi Les
Thoroughly enjoyed the youtube clip , what more can one say ! ?.
90th

Les
I agree with 90th.
Regards
Brett

Gary, Brett... I was telling my middle son Blake about
the mini campaign to stop the showing of Zulu on armed forces
day.. he agreed that there is a growing culture whereby people
feel the need to complain about everything... for the sake of it!,
so he directed me to Jonathan Pie, there is no end it seem's to
the amount of ' ranter's ' on line... but i watched the clip and
thought yes that's it!.. i feel the same way as he doe's.. and i
have to say i admire ' cleverness ' especially in modern satire.
cheer's xhosa