WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Zulu Film Quote Lieutenant Bromhead :If 1200 men couldn't hold a defensive position this morning, what chance have we with 100?
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyFri Jun 24, 2022 10:17 pm by Tim Needham

» Bechuanaland police
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 3:18 pm by ciroferrara

» 17th Lancers
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 3:07 pm by gardner1879

» Commissary E. W. H. Webb, C.B.
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyWed Jun 22, 2022 4:02 pm by Julian Whybra

» Captain Robert Francis Vetch
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyWed Jun 22, 2022 1:03 pm by Frank Allewell

» The difference between a Drummer and a Boy in the Band.
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyTue Jun 21, 2022 4:07 am by magolding

» Zulu Boys Recollection of the Zulu War
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyTue Jun 21, 2022 3:40 am by magolding

» Remembering the Rebellion - The Zulu Uprising of 1906 Jeff Guy
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyMon Jun 20, 2022 10:09 pm by Ian Chard

» Sergeant Arthur Horatio Still, 12th Lancers
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 7:29 pm by Julian Whybra

» Corporal James Lawler 1/24th
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 12:42 pm by gardner1879

» Quartermaster Michael James Kenny Connaught Rangers
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 12:39 pm by gardner1879

» Captain Ulick De Burgh
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 8:55 am by gardner1879

» I am a happy boy!
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 5:17 am by nitro450

» Patrick Murray, 313, 88th of Foot
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyFri Jun 17, 2022 5:22 pm by gardner1879

» Zulu Dawn on DVD - better than Blu-Ray?
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyFri Jun 17, 2022 3:29 pm by TimmyH

» Lieutenant Richard Hawes MacCarthy, 2nd/4th Regiment
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyFri Jun 17, 2022 2:59 pm by Julian Whybra

» Howard Molyneux Edward Brunker
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyThu Jun 16, 2022 11:05 am by gardner1879

» Location of Special Service Officers 1878/9
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyWed Jun 15, 2022 12:34 pm by gardner1879

» Cdvs and cabinet card photos wanted
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyTue Jun 14, 2022 2:19 pm by ciroferrara

» Other ranks patrol jacket
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyMon Jun 13, 2022 12:23 pm by John Young

» A Staffordshire Regiment in the Zulu and Zekukuni Campaigns
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptySun Jun 12, 2022 5:12 pm by gardner1879

» Good website or seller for zulu war era Carte De Visites
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptySat Jun 11, 2022 2:27 pm by ciroferrara

» In search of more service papers
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyFri Jun 10, 2022 11:10 pm by charltontom7@gmail.com

» Isandlwana solving the enigma
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyFri Jun 10, 2022 1:41 pm by Julian Whybra

» Brave mens blood. Frontier Light Horse picture
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyThu Jun 09, 2022 8:54 pm by ciroferrara

» Picture Quiz
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptySat Jun 04, 2022 2:56 pm by Julian Whybra

» Platinum Jubilee
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyFri Jun 03, 2022 10:25 pm by Julian Whybra

» Trooper G Hennessey (301) Frontier Light Horse
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyThu Jun 02, 2022 2:43 pm by 90th

» Captain Robert Julian Orde Jocelyn 8th Reg
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyMon May 30, 2022 6:48 am by gardner1879

» Best book on colonial soldiers during zulu war
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptySun May 29, 2022 12:14 am by ciroferrara

» Sergeant E Wilson
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyWed May 25, 2022 9:30 am by gardner1879

» 1940 Review of 'Lord Chelmsford and the Zulu War'
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyTue May 24, 2022 12:53 pm by gardner1879

» H.M.S. Forester
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyTue May 24, 2022 2:55 am by 90th

» Royal Small Arms Repair Factory - Pimlico / Mill Bank , London
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyWed May 18, 2022 2:04 pm by MPS1

» Deafness linked to the effects of battle
Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyMon May 16, 2022 1:56 pm by Younghusband

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
The Death of the Prince Imperial Zulu War 1879
Top posters
90th
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
littlehand
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
ADMIN
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
1879graves
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
rusteze
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
John
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
gardner1879
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
John Young
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
ciroferrara
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
Vaughan
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
Ian Chard
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
90th
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
Bill8183
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
Tim Needham
Missing page paylist 1/24th Bar_leftMissing page paylist 1/24th BarMissing page paylist 1/24th Bar_right 
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Adding to the Library
The ammunition question
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
Franklin Isandlwana Mounted james George harford spalding Natal drift taylor william Police martini Woolfryes Prince henry Durnford zulu 24th smith payne john horse Russell carbineers brown
 

 Missing page paylist 1/24th

Go down 
4 posters
AuthorMessage
Bill8183




Posts : 112
Join date : 2015-11-08
Age : 53
Location : Sunderland

Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Missing page paylist 1/24th   Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptySat Aug 11, 2018 4:10 pm

Afternoon all,

In early July I took photographs of the paylist of the 1/24th paylist WO 16/1574 1st April to 30th September 1879 I have taken quite a few photo's of paylists so it's taken a while to get to check this one.

Sadly there appears to be a missing page listing the Sergeants. It jumps from page 6 (pencilled number top left of page),  starting with 1790 Bond William to page 8 Sgt Beard (attached Sgts). I have checked the remarks column opposite and it doesn't seem to match up so it's not a mis-numbering as happens later in the book.

Does anyone have a transcription or have taken a photo with the page intact? I'm not sure if it is deliberate or just fallen out, a couple of the pages are quite tattered.

Regards,

Bill
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 2911
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyMon Aug 13, 2018 3:45 pm

It WAS there when I went through them all back in the 80s. I didn't copy them all sadly, merely checked there were no additions or removals of individuals from quarter to quarter. Forgive the obvious, have you checked it hasn't fallen out and been inserted either elsewhere in the paylist or in one of the NEXT two paylists?
Failing that, ask at the desk to see if it's been put somewhere safe and is awaiting being re-sewn into the book.
Back to top Go down
Bill8183




Posts : 112
Join date : 2015-11-08
Age : 53
Location : Sunderland

Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyMon Aug 13, 2018 7:55 pm

Julian,

Thanks, yes I've checked all my photos of the paylists before and after, nothing there. The paylist from April 1880 onward has printed numbers anyway. Looking closely I can see the remnants of the page in the centre fold. I'm visiting Kew again on Saturday so will ask at the desk, if I have time I'll try and re-order it to check again especially as I seem to have missed page 39 Privates "M"... rather careless.

Essentially I was checking on the return dates of the Mounted Infantry, I have your articles on the 1st Squadron in Soldiers Of The Queen 58/59 and Studies in The Zulu War Vol 2. I was hoping to see if I could identify the 17 men under Lt Clements who joined Pearson's column, and the 20 reinforcements who joined the 1st Squadron, as mentioned in the Historical Records of the 24th pg 221/222

Bill
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 2911
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyMon Aug 13, 2018 10:42 pm

I may be able to help you there. I'm hoping I still have the information. It would be unlike me to throw info away though it may be 'buried'. Give me a few days to see if I can find it.
My Mounted Infantry article in SOTQ had some typos in it in the printing AND I have since updated it and added the 2nd squadron's info - all of which I hope to include as a 'new' revamped essay for Studies in the Zulu War VI or VII.
Back to top Go down
Kenny




Posts : 465
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyWed Aug 15, 2018 1:47 pm

Bill,

Sorry for the delay in responding.  I took images of WO16/1574 at Kew on 7 Oct 2007.  Yes, page 7 (Sergeants) appears to be missing - however in the central margins of page 6 there appear to some remnants of the missing page 7 and as you noted the remarks do not line up.  So the apparent removal of page 7 is not a recent event.  It may be possible to get close to re-compiling the missing entries by making a comparison with the later 1/24th pay lists (1 Oct 79 - 31 Mar 1880).  I have not undertaken this recovery exercise myself.  A start date of 1 Oct may give a clue that an individual sergeant was on the role between Apr-Sep 79.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 2911
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyWed Aug 15, 2018 4:56 pm

Good!
I've not yet found Lieut. Clements's 17 men yet but I'm sure David Jackson showed me such a list and sent it to me in the 90s. I'm sure I still have it and will continue to search. I recall he didn't come by it via TNA.
Back to top Go down
Bill8183




Posts : 112
Join date : 2015-11-08
Age : 53
Location : Sunderland

Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyWed Aug 15, 2018 5:52 pm

Kenny,

Thanks for the info, as Julian suggested I will ask at the desk on Saturday, but I suspect the page is long gone. I will see what finds comparing the paylists will come up with, I will also have to check the Jan-Mar 1879 and the reinforcements Draft paylist too.

Julian,

Again thanks for your help, much appreciated. I wonder if that information was from Brecon? Look forward to reading future articles, talking of which how is Volume V and 9th edition ES coming along?

Regards,

Bill
Back to top Go down
Kenny




Posts : 465
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyWed Aug 15, 2018 7:24 pm

Bill,

Sorry I also missed your later post. I was so keen to find whether I had a copy of the missing page 7 - the complete pay list was hidden away on an old external drive which I no longer use. However I now find I could send you an image of page 39 if you wish - one less job to do. I found some queries on the 'Clyde' draft (included with WO16/1574) which I can also send you. The date I copied this file was 3 Oct 2007 not 7 Oct 2007 as I previously stated. Send me a private email if you wish a copy of page 39.

Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 2911
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyWed Aug 15, 2018 8:33 pm

Martin
It never ceases to amaze me how between everyone on this site, 9 times out of 10, we can help one another with bits of info here and there. I would certainly like a copy of the missing paylist page as well please!
Bill
Vol V is coming along, nearing the conclusion in fact - to tell the truth I have found so much of interest and so much new material in the 3 essays that I have been very concerned to do my absolute best by it - so I have taken my time. Frederic will also be contributing and likewise he has been meticulous and painstaking in his research. I think it will be worth the wait. I shall post info on it on the forum when it is ready.
Back to top Go down
Kenny




Posts : 465
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyWed Aug 15, 2018 8:41 pm

Julian,

I may have confused you - I have noted that the missing page 7 was missing when I copied the 1/24th pay list in 2007 - over 10 years ago! So it is not a recent loss.  I was offering Bill a copy of page 39 which he said he overlooked when he was copying the same pay list recently..
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 2911
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyThu Aug 16, 2018 7:52 am

Martin
Sorry! My mistake!
Back to top Go down
Bill8183




Posts : 112
Join date : 2015-11-08
Age : 53
Location : Sunderland

Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyFri Aug 17, 2018 8:56 pm

So far it's been an interesting little exercise in determining the Mounted Infantry roll, if we take the numbers as written in the Historical Records as accurate (20 reinforcements & 17 with Lt. Clements) and add to the original detachment of 45 (Other ranks only) I am looking for 82 soldiers.

The paylist April to Sept 1879 lists 60 men returning plus one unknown from the missing Sgts page (which I assess as probably being L/Sgt or Sgt Robert Jamieson, (original group) listed as a Sgt in the next paylist).

30 were the original group, 8 returned on the 8th May 79 the remainder 21st August 79.
10 were reinforcement sent 1st and 6th June 79 returning with the main body 21st August 79.
20 more are listed, 2 returning 1st April, 1 on 6th June, the remaining 17 returning 1st July 79

Of the 14 original troop not listed, 5 were dead ( Atkinson, Byrne, Edwards, Turner & Bastard)
1 had returned to 1st Battalion (Probert) date unknown.
3 at the General Depot (White returned to 1/24th on 16th August 79, Galloway to UK 2nd Feb 1879, Scudder returned 13th August 79)
2 at Hospital (Griggs and 343 Walsh) have not found them in subsequent lists.
1 (Banyard) listed as still on 80th Regt strength in March 79 (not seen later lists) listed on 1/24th Oct 79 to Mar 80 paylist as returning from Pinetown S.A. on 1st December 1879
2 (Norman and McCarthy) not found them subsequently yet.

So a total of 75 men from 82 although who were with Number 1 column I have yet to determine. Plus 4 above still not pinpointed their exact movements.

Thanks to Martin & Julian for their help so far.

WO 16/1573 Pay list 1/24th Regt 1877-1879 various lists inc draft, St Helena Detachment and post Isandlwana
WO 16/1574 Pay list 1/24th Regt 1879-1880
WO 16/1982 Pay list 80th Regt 1878-79
WO 16/2488 Pay list General Depot Pietermaritzburg 1878-1880

Soldiers of the Queen issue 58/59 January 1990 No 1. Sqn Mounted Infantry Julian Whybra
Studies in the Zulu War Vol 2 Julian Whybra
Historical Records of the 24th Regt 1689-1892 Paton, Glennie & Penn Symons
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2452
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 66
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyFri Aug 17, 2018 10:30 pm

Bill,

Have you looked at 2nd/4th’s Pay & Muster Roll? Post-iSandlwana 2nd/4th supplied men to augment the losses.

This is evidenced by the two casualties from the 2nd/4th whilst serving in the 1st Squadron, Mounted Infantry, sustained at Khambula.

Just a thought as to somewhere else to look.

JY
Back to top Go down
Bill8183




Posts : 112
Join date : 2015-11-08
Age : 53
Location : Sunderland

Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyFri Aug 17, 2018 11:03 pm

John,

Thanks, actually no I haven't. Although I think I have a decent knowledge of the Zulu War, I do sometimes tend to concentrate on the 24th. My biggest weakness is in knowing the location of the various units stationed in South Africa at the time, which is useful if certain sub units are known to be attached like the Mounted Infantry Squadrons.

Many thanks on that pointer, I have added it to my list!

Bill
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 2911
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyThu Aug 23, 2018 7:36 am

Bill
Jamieson was promoted sergt. on 22.1.79!
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 2911
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyThu Aug 23, 2018 5:54 pm

Norman died 27.3.1879 in Ladysmith.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 2911
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyThu Aug 23, 2018 5:57 pm

John Welsh was discharged 3.3.79.
Back to top Go down
 
Missing page paylist 1/24th
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Recovering the missing 24th Colours, NMP records, Tpr Clarke reporting
» Recovering the missing 24th Colours, NMP records, Tpr Clarke reporting
» Recovering the missing 24th Colours, NMP records, Tpr Clarke reporting
» Officers with Chelmsford’s column.
» Home Page Christmas Decoration

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: