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» 24th Regiment side drum a plea for help
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 Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat
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rusteze
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3966
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyThu Nov 08, 2018 10:31 am

This is just to let you know that

STUDIES IN THE ZULU WAR 1879: vol. V

will be available from Brecon Museum from Monday 19th November.
Copies may be pre-ordered (either by phone or e-mail from Stephen Farish on 01874 613310 / [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]).

Essays included are:

Memento Mori Julian Whybra

The Symons Account: Lord Chelmsford’s Reconnaissance
& the Defence of Rorke’s Drift Julian Whybra

An Account of Isandhlwana by Trooper
Walter Granger, Natal Carbineers Frédéric Bomy and Julian Whybra

Regards,

Julian Whybra

Description of each:

“Memento Mori concerns four short anecdotes to do with the battle of Isandhlwana which have wholly or partially never been in the public domain. It is important that they and their provenance should be so. Whilst two of the four are affecting at a personal, emotional level the other two are important at a strategic level for a thorough understanding of how the battle unfolded.”

“The Symons Account at Brecon has never before been made available to the public, transcribed in full, or published in its entirety. Captain William Penn Symons 2/24th accompanied Lord Chelmsford’s Reconnaissance of 21st-22nd January 1879. His two journals - a draft with deletions and insertions and a finished version with annotations - contain a wealth of information shedding light and controversy on Isandhlwana and Rorke’s Drift. It was compiled February-April 1879 from the author’s own experiences and from interviews with surviving participants. Too long to include in one volume, it is divided in half, as in the original manuscript. This volume contains the first part describing Chelmsford’s Reconnaissance and the Defence of Rorke’s Drift. The second part describing the battle of Isandhlwana on 22nd January will appear in Volume VI.”

“The recently-discovered account of Isandhlwana by Trooper Granger of the Natal Carbineers leads the reader into formerly-uncharted territory, some of it highly controversial. It sheds light on to the movements of the mounted men at Isandhlwana during the camp alarms and subsequent attack, the ad hoc nature of the defence of the camp, details of the makeshift defence in front of the 1/24th’s tents, the nature of the successful Zulu encirclement of the camp, incidents during the flight to the Buffalo, the fate of the 24th Regiment’s ‘child-soldiers’ and the possibility of torture, the subsequent discovery, identification and burial of the bodies of Natal Carbineeers and their location on the battlefield, and much else besides.”

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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyThu Nov 08, 2018 11:05 am

Huzzah!!!
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyThu Nov 08, 2018 11:12 am

Look forward to reading that.
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SRB1965

SRB1965


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Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyThu Nov 08, 2018 11:25 am

Whoop whoop
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Julian Whybra




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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyThu Nov 08, 2018 12:00 pm

As usual, the devil will be in the detail and there is of course a wealth of new snippets of information and previously-unseen letters accounts included to back up the findings.
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rusteze

rusteze


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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyThu Nov 08, 2018 12:34 pm

Just heard back from Stephen Farrish at Royal Welsh. Apparently they cannot take pre-orders - must wait for it to come up on their website.

Steve
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyThu Nov 08, 2018 2:22 pm

rusteze
Apologies. I was told to forewarn a week before they would be available at the museum.
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Julian Whybra




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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyMon Nov 19, 2018 2:59 pm

Volume V is now on sale via the Museum website.  This volume is almost half as big again as previous volumes (124 pages)...and I had to cut quite a lot to get it down to that!
All those who merited acknowledgements have been duly acknowledged (I hope). If anyone HAS been left off, please let me know and I'll ensure you are included in subsequent reprints.
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Frank Allewell

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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyMon Nov 19, 2018 4:48 pm

Buy 100 pages and get 24 for free?
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John Young

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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyMon Nov 19, 2018 4:57 pm

I wondered why the price had increased!

Ordered mine this afternoon.

JY
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rusteze

rusteze


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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyMon Nov 19, 2018 6:00 pm

Likewise! Time for a binder, covered in cow skin to a regiment of your choice?
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Julian Whybra




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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyMon Nov 19, 2018 7:00 pm

Well, it contains three interconnected essays which refer back and forward to one another - each proving a vital point(s) enabling another's argument to continue (a sort of QED) - so all three had to be in one volume.  
Pages have to be organized in fours so the total pages had to be a multiple of 4.
I began with 142 pages.  Reducing the font size a tad for all the footnotes and some of the tables brought the total down to 132 pages.  I then was down to making photos slightly smaller and cutting text so I could get it into 124 pages - the maximum size for an A4 paperback for staples to go through.
Any larger and different more expensive staples and stapling machine have to be used which would have increased the cost by £2.50 per copy!
As you can imagine the proofs were going back and forth between me and the printer and the publisher was tapping his fingers...a 3-week process in all.
Sometimes the technical aspects and the rewrites involved are more demanding and time-consuming than the research involved!!
I promise it'll be worth the extra cost!
Next time for Volume VI I'm aiming for an 88- or 92-page volume at the original price.
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rusteze

rusteze


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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyMon Nov 19, 2018 11:05 pm

Are you sure it's not an annex to the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement?
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyMon Nov 19, 2018 11:49 pm

Can not wait to get my hands on Volume 5 anything that sheds light on the Caribinerrs and there movements, and picket postions before the battle started at mid day this new infowould be helpful.  I dont have my source book in front of me but did trooper Granger survive the battle because only a handful escaped

Thanks Julian for your work
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Julian Whybra




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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyTue Nov 20, 2018 8:30 am

aussie
Yes, he did, hence the post-battle letter.  Granger was in camp at the battle's start, not on picquet, but it does mean he was able to witness quite a lot from his position.  Actually that particular essay was co-authored with Frederic Bomy.
rusteze
Yes, it felt like the Brexit amendment with all the rewrites.
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90th

90th


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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Studies in the AZW Vol V    Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyTue Nov 20, 2018 10:45 am

Ordered mine today . You need to study mo
90th Salute
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1879graves

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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyTue Nov 20, 2018 11:14 am

And me Salute
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warrior3




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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyTue Nov 20, 2018 4:10 pm

Julian,
Ordered mine yesterday, can't wait.
Thanks
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rusteze

rusteze


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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyThu Nov 22, 2018 10:29 am

Just to get in first, mine has arrived this morning! No comments yet other than to say WOW - huge amounts of analysis, footnotes and references. One note of warning though, the manila envelope used by the museum is barely up to the job of containing this large publication. Mine had five distinct holes and tears by the time it got through the Royal Mail (the book inside was fine) - but hate to think what might happen to any going further afield.

Steve
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90th

90th


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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Studies in the AZW Vol V    Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyThu Nov 22, 2018 10:33 am

Well done Steve , although I'm slightly nervous about my copy !!
90th Shocked You need to study mo Shocked Shocked
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Julian Whybra




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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyThu Nov 22, 2018 11:45 am

Steve
Thanks, I'll pass the comment on anonymously to the museum.
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyThu Nov 22, 2018 7:55 pm

I have started with the Penn Symons account and already I am itching to get into debate - and that's only from Julian's commentary! I understand that few have read it so far and I will have to wait for responses. But I needed to put pen to paper.

The first thing to say is that this is, as Julian puts it, an extraordinary document. He talks (and speculates) in the commentary about the origins of the document and the severe constraints placed upon its dissemination that have lasted until today. Julian says (to my mind very tellingly) that future research will shed yet more light on "dark corners". That is what grabbed me because it chimes with my own view that much was going on in the corridors of power for a few years after Isandhlwana. The commissioning of Symons to write his report, the possible knowledge/involvement of Glyn, the very close interest of the Adjutant General of Intelligence, the Duke of Cambridge and the Queen, and the fact that none of this escaped into the public domain begins to open up all sorts of possibilities. Did Chelmsford ever know about this ? - I suspect not. Did it inform the Duke of Cambridge's searching questions of Chelmsford after the disaster ? - I suspect so. Did its existence play any part in Crealock suddenly revealing his "lost orders" to Edward Durnford? Did it influence General Brackenbury in agreeing to amend the official Narrative? Did its existence contribute to the Narratives suppression?

I feel that Symons account, who commissioned it,  and the handful of people who knew about it, allows us to make sense of previously unexplained events in the aftermath of the AZW. More light is indeed needed.

Steve Reinstadtler
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Frank Allewell

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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyFri Nov 23, 2018 5:11 am

Add to that list Steve: Why did the museum produce a sanitised version, very recent history. The author of that is a forum member, possibly he could share the thinking behind it?
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barry

barry


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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: The big cover-up   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyFri Nov 23, 2018 5:32 am

Hi Steve,

Amazing, I am getting a whiff of a big Cover -Up. By gad, "amending" the official  version,...what next?.
RIP Ron Lock.

regards

barry
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Julian Whybra




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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyFri Nov 23, 2018 8:03 am

I know of at least two that have arrived by now. Steve's enthusiasm apart, I would suggest that the 3 essays are read in the order they appear in the book. The cumulative aspect of the information presented would be more effective and logical that way.
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ymob

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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyFri Nov 23, 2018 9:41 am

The comments written by W.P. Symons about Chelmsford are signifiant and Glyn, in particular, appears in a new light.
Frédéric
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http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Julian Whybra




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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyFri Nov 23, 2018 10:24 am

Steve
Museum's comment on postings: "...But it wasn’t just a manila envelope, it was a thick MOD envelope with cardboard ‘do not bend’ backing. I think that particular one must have received some very rough treatment. We’ll see what happens!"
Please do let me know if any more arrive with 'sub-standard' packaging and I'll pass comments on.
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rusteze

rusteze


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Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Empty
PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyFri Nov 23, 2018 10:43 am

Without wanting to over egg this the "MOD envelope" is perhaps a prime example of government cuts! Thin cardboard back, standard manila front, hence rips where the cardboard edges meet the front because of the weight and bulk of the book inside (telling the PO not to bend is a forlorn hope). I am afraid that in comparison to an Amazon version, or even an almost indestructible sealed plastic sleeve this was poor. But the content is the important thing! Enough moaning.

PS. It may of course be that Aldershot Post Office has a built in aversion to MOD envelopes!

Steve
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyFri Nov 23, 2018 11:14 am

Getting back to important issues, it is also worth noting that the leather bound version of the Symons account, purchased by the Ashworth Barracks Museum and recently published by the VC Trust is also "sanitised". As an example, the passage about Major Dunbar"s disagreement with Col. Crealock over the location of the Bashee camp, his resigning of his commission, and Symons comment about the state of mind of the HQ Staff is omitted from the VC Trust version. There is clearly a long history of "sanitised" versions.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyFri Nov 23, 2018 11:22 am

Hi All

I received mine yesterday, in the same condition as Steve's. Envelope ripped and six holes, but contents were fine.

Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyFri Nov 23, 2018 5:13 pm

Mine came in a proper book box. No problems as far as I could see as it was snatched from my grasp by the Memsahib.

Apparently the volume and something else from the Museum are part of my Christmas presents...

JY
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyFri Nov 23, 2018 5:21 pm

Gift wrapped?
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyFri Nov 23, 2018 5:44 pm

Not yet, I imagine they will be when I see them next!

Merry Christmas Merry Christmas Merry Christmas
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptyFri Nov 23, 2018 10:17 pm

rusteze wrote:
Getting back to important issues, it is also worth noting that the leather bound version of the Symons account, purchased by the Ashworth Barracks Museum and recently published by the VC Trust is also "sanitised". As an example, the passage about Major Dunbar"s disagreement with Col. Crealock over the location of the Bashee camp, his resigning of his commission, and Symons comment about the state of mind of the HQ Staff is omitted from the VC Trust version. There is clearly a long history of "sanitised" versions.

Steve

Steve,
It's would be interesting to study again "Historical Records of the 24th" with the same "warning" in mind ("sanitised"?)...
Fred
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptySat Nov 24, 2018 11:05 am

I agree Fred and I will be taking a look.

There seem to be, in total, three passages missing (or modified) in the VC Trust copy of Symon's report compared to his original. The reference to Dunbar I have already mentioned, Glyn's suggestion that scouts should be sent up onto the ridge following sightings on 21January, Chelmsford's failure to scout to the north as he makes his way to Mangeni, and the refusal by Chelmsford's staff to requests to reinforce the defences at Rorke's Drift. It is clear that the criticisms of Chelmsford and his staff in the original have been substantially watered down in the bound copy. I cannot of course say what might be omitted from the Isandhlwana section of the report until we see the next edition of Julian's tour de force!

Julian is right that the essays in SZW V are best read in sequence and I have also now read the four Memento Mori anecdotes. Again I will wait for others to comment, but I am struck in particular by the evidence of who sent Lt Cavaye and his company up onto the spur.

Steve Reinstadtler
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptySat Nov 24, 2018 11:28 am

About Memento Mori anecdotes:
Personally, I was struck by the possible and important implications on our beliefs about the last stand on the banks of the Manzimnayama River related in part to the location of Anstey's body .
Fred
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptySat Nov 24, 2018 11:37 am

I.E: In link with Granger's essay
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptySat Nov 24, 2018 11:48 am

I agree, not read Granger yet though.
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptySat Nov 24, 2018 12:15 pm

Steve,
I am sorry, it the reason why I added "I.E".
Amitié
Fred
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptySat Nov 24, 2018 12:26 pm

Fred you will recall I initiated a discussion on Anstey not to long ago. That was purely coincidental, I had no knowledge of Julians essay. Bloody wish I had though, I took some stick over that topic. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptySat Nov 24, 2018 12:33 pm

Frank

And you really are going to have to knuckle down and produce your essay on the events on the eastern plain - in particular the Zulu reserve. Shafts of light are breaking though which corroborate your thesis and are set to provide yet another key change in the way we understand events.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptySat Nov 24, 2018 1:35 pm

Yeah your right Steve, it is actually conceptually completed. All the research is done just a pain in the rear end to get it all written up to the correct standards.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptySat Nov 24, 2018 1:42 pm

Pish posh! (translate that Fred). Just what Einstein said in a slightly German accent.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptySat Nov 24, 2018 2:10 pm

Steve,
in other words, it seems to me that Frank's essay is finsished except that he does not like his style of writing...
It I can rassure him, I wrote my part of work in French....
Amitié
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptySat Nov 24, 2018 2:18 pm

Fred I like my style of writing its that bloody minded editor that doesn't ! Shocked Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptySat Nov 24, 2018 2:21 pm

Frank,
About Anstey, I remember perfectly your words. Your attitude was "so rigid" (see no offense) that I even wondered if you had any hidden informations about Anstey's death.
If it's not the case, it's probably in reason of your study of the fight, of your knolewdge of the battlefield.
In this case, your opinion would be very interesting in link with the essays in Vol. V.
I also keep in mind your analysis about MacLeroy's death....Again, your opinion would be interesting after the reading of Granger's essay.
I am totally agree with Steve's comments about your essay. I am also impatient to see it published.
Amitié
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptySat Nov 24, 2018 2:23 pm

Frank,
To evacuate definitivly the problem, write it in French language...
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptySat Nov 24, 2018 2:27 pm

Steve
Pisch posch?

Frank
Bloody-minded? Pedantic, I'll accept...but bloody-minded,
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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptySat Nov 24, 2018 2:27 pm

Fred Im not going to risk infringing on Julians essay, suffice to say we worked from similar areas. My long time objection is that there is NO evidence apart from a regimental note that says Anstey was where he was. For the rest I differ to the 'Studies'.

Cheers my Friend

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PostSubject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V   Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V EmptySat Nov 24, 2018 2:31 pm

Mr Keating springs to mind Joker Salute
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