| Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V | |
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+12Chelmsfordthescapegoat ymob barry warrior3 1879graves 90th aussie inkosi John Young SRB1965 Frank Allewell rusteze Julian Whybra 16 posters |
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John Young
Posts : 3319 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:05 pm | |
| Hi Smoko,
If you have it delivered to me, I could give it to you at iSandlwana.
JY |
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90th
Posts : 10912 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Studies in the AZW Vol V Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:29 pm | |
| Hi JY Thanks Mate , it's all good , I have a copy . 90th |
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littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 56 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:49 pm | |
| Drury Lowe also mentions bodies that had been subjected to torture and other atrocities during his visit to isandlwana. |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4189 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:41 pm | |
| littlehand Indeed he does. What Frederic and I wanted to prove was that first (in 'The Wrecked Camp') that the horrors of the battlefield was perfectly visible in the pre-dawn and post-dawn light to the rearguard companies and NMP (and by torchlight in the middle of the night) and secondly (in the 'Granger' essay) that there were contemporary eye witnesses to the fate of the Boys among the survivors, among the rearguard mentioned above, and among those who went to bury the dead. The first essay led to the second and the evidence we presented cannot easily be ignored, discounted or dismissed out of hand with bland phrases or claims of Grauelpropaganda. All second-hand accounts, all hearsay, all accounts born of rumour were discounted in our presentations so we cannot be accused of simply repeating gossip. |
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Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:48 pm | |
| A bit late... but this from an interview by former Driver Philip Rundles N/5 RA was published in the Western Mail 31st July 1934
"...the natives had not been content with merely killing their enemies but had mutilated their bodies afterwards. The regimental band, consisting mostly of youths, seemed to have been an object of special hate, for their bodies were literally chopped into little pieces. The Zulus, Mr Rundles went on to say, apparently held the superstitious belief that the British would lose their courage if they lost their music..."
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4189 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:54 pm | |
| Lee I cannot find Rundles in the N/5 paylist/muster roll from 1879. Are you sure you have the right name? |
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90th
Posts : 10912 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Studies in the AZW Vol V Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:26 pm | |
| Julian & Lee Rundles isn't on the Roll in Major P.E. Abbott's booklet on N Bty 5th Bgde . 90th |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4189 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:03 am | |
| Lee Might Rundles be a real name for a man on roll with a nom de guerre? Is there any indication in the letter that he was actually with LC's Reconnaissance? Does he mention any others' names? |
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1879graves
Posts : 3388 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:11 am | |
| Hi 90th & Julian Driver Philip Rundles was Royal Artillery 6th Brigade N Battery. |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4189 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:17 am | |
| graves Thanks but does the evidence you have indicate that he was in N/6 in January 1879? Later? I'm merely trying to establish where his remarks come from - hearsay? - burial party? - might he have transferred? |
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1879graves
Posts : 3388 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:28 am | |
| Hi Julian Here is the article. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Western Mail 31st July 1934 |
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1879graves
Posts : 3388 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:40 am | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- graves
Thanks but does the evidence you have indicate that he was in N/6 in January 1879? Later? I'm merely trying to establish where his remarks come from - hearsay? - burial party? - might he have transferred? Hi Julian From his service record. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] |
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Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:24 am | |
| From his arrival date at the Cape that would suggest his memories are pretty much hearsay? |
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rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:24 am | |
| Note his name was Rundle not Rundles. And he was hospitalised at the Cape for much of March and April 1879, so definitely hearsay.
Steve |
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90th
Posts : 10912 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Studies in the AZW Vol V Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:57 am | |
| Plenty of inaccuracies in the Newspaper report . 90th |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4189 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:31 pm | |
| And he sounds like a teller of tall stories to boot judging from the rest of the report. Just the sort of thing that gives good historical research a bad name. Good intentions Lee, but Mr. Rundle let you down. |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4189 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:37 pm | |
| All As an additional piece of information on youngsters at Isandhlwana there were two privates (not Boys [but boys]) who were also very young: 25B/618 Pte. Leonard Henry Hankin 2/24th born Apr-Jun 1862 aged 16 at Isan. He lied about his age at enlistment on 17.7.75 saying he was 14 – in fact he was 13. 25B/619 Pte. George Walter Ghost 2/24th born Jul-Sep 1863 aged 15 at Isan. He lied about his age at enlistment on 16.7.75 by using the identity of a dead baby brother George (1861-2) and saying he was 14 – in fact he was 13 .
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1879graves
Posts : 3388 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:49 pm | |
| Hi Julian
I am not disagreeing with you on your above post.
But hindsight is a great thing. At the time they would have been known as Boys not boys.
Andy |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4189 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:56 pm | |
| graves I think you might have misread my post (perhaps I didn't word it clearly). The whole point of it was that these two did NOT have the rank 'Boy'. On 22.1.1879 they were both 'Privates' - yet they were 16 and 15 (they had lied about their age)! |
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SRB1965
Posts : 1255 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:40 am | |
| Sorry to be thick but......
Hankin and Ghost enlisted in the 24th, both aged '14' (but actually 13) I'm OK so far.....but they enlisted as Private and not 'Boy'.
If so, was there some kind of 'blind eye' policy when recruiting soldiers? Shouldn't they have been enlisted as 'Boy' and still be that rank at the age of 16?
Thanks
Simon |
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Kenny
Posts : 615 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:41 am | |
| Simon,
In those days you did not have to produce your actual Birth Certificate (as post WW1) at enlistment. The judgement of age of the new recruit was in the hands of the Recruiting NCO. |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4189 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:15 am | |
| SRB You misunderstood. I wrote that on 22.1.1879 both Ghost and Hankin were listed in the Pay and Muster Rolls as Privates. I did not write that they enlisted as Boy (rank). That was not recorded at enlistment. If they were Boys (rank) to start with, then they became Privates in due course.
The point I was trying to make was that when late in the evening of the 22nd or the early morning of the 23rd or when the visiting or burial parties returned to camp, men would have seen the mutilated, partly naked corpses of boys (under-aged youths). The assumption would have been they were Boys (rank) whereas we now know there were several other European boys (under-aged youths) in camp from Carbineers, to waggoners, to Boy Green, and now two 24th Privates. |
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SRB1965
Posts : 1255 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:41 am | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- SRB
You misunderstood. I wrote that on 22.1.1879 both Ghost and Hankin were listed in the Pay and Muster Rolls as Privates. I did not write that they enlisted as Boy (rank). That was not recorded at enlistment. If they were Boys (rank) to start with, then they became Privates in due course.
Hi Julian OK so at the time of enlistment, they could have enlisted as Boys....... Was there a set age when a Boy would become a Private? Thanks Simon |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4189 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:52 am | |
| Usually 17. But it appears there was flexibility in the regulations. Sensible. No EU directives or red lines then...! The same principle of flexibility operated with the enlistment age. |
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rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:26 am | |
| Enlistment forms at the time do not ask for date of birth - just age at enlistment. So a pretty wide margin is possible.
Steve |
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SRB1965
Posts : 1255 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:04 pm | |
| - rusteze wrote:
- Enlistment forms at the time do not ask for date of birth - just age at enlistment. So a pretty wide margin is possible.
Steve If it was anything like my Gt Gt Grandfather - his age changed depending on how young his 'wife to be was'....and what he felt like telling the Census collectors.....I'm not talking about the odd couple of years either......its been a right nightmare to work him out.... |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4189 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:14 pm | |
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SRB1965
Posts : 1255 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:39 pm | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- Forever young eh, SRB?
Almost 'Peter Pan' like....... |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4189 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:21 am | |
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Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:19 pm | |
| Ok, here's another one for the mix... A piece in the Manchester Evening News 26th July 1879 reported the death of Sergeant [Farrier] J Taylor 17th Lancers at Ulundi ; "...It appears that his regiment and that of the First King's Dragoons were at Isandula two months after the disaster to the British troops, and as he had to take part in the burial of the dead, he witnessed many sickening sights. His description of the manner in which the dead bodies of the English soldiers had been treated by the savages is simply horrible. He says:- 'Some of the poor men had their brains knocked out, others their heads cut off, legs, arms and hands cut off, and there was not one man in Isandula but what had his bowels cut out. Some of them had their chests cut open and their heads thrust into their hearts. I saw two band boys, aged from 14 to 16 years, and from these the Zulus had taken their hearts and put them in their hands..."
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4189 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:40 pm | |
| Thanks Lee. Fred and I used Taylor's quotation on p. 101 fn. 104. But please...any additional ones you do find we'd be pleased to hear about! |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4189 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:28 pm | |
| Just to say that Brecon has restocked with Studies in the Zulu war volumes I to V and these are now available for sale. |
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AlCapone
Posts : 5 Join date : 2019-02-21
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:57 pm | |
| Excellent. I just checked with them a few days ago and they said they were waiting. |
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Julian Whybra
Posts : 4189 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:31 am | |
| I was e-mailed on Friday by Brecon to say the re-stocking had arrived at the museum. |
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steve.333
Posts : 40 Join date : 2018-05-15 Location : New Zealand
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:07 pm | |
| [quote="SRB1965" If it was anything like my Gt Gt Grandfather - his age changed depending on how young his 'wife to be was'....and what he felt like telling the Census collectors.....I'm not talking about the odd couple of years either......its been a right nightmare to work him out....[/quote]
Thanks for that Simon - gives me some encouragement! My Zulu War ancestor also had a sudden age jump (downwards) at one point! I had begun to suspect it was because his new wife to be was only 19 and the parents (or she) would not approve. Could also have been because men over 30 were not allowed to enlist in the ABW unit he wanted to join. To make matters worse his place of birth also seemed to change at about the same time. Possibly related to a record in the archives naming him as an escaped prisoner ... soldier - prisoner, probably a fine line sometimes |
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SRB1965
Posts : 1255 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:09 am | |
| Hi Steve,
Yeah - we are used to young people lying about their age to join up but it could equally be that someone above the upper age limit 'shaved' a few years off.
As far as census's went - people would come round and knock on your door and ask you the relevant details, that info would then have been transcribed by area/county (I have been told by some cases by prisoners and in later years overseas?) so there is plenty of scope for transcribers errors.
It is quite possible that someone did not know exactly when they were born, especially if they had no record of registration etc (we in the modern world fixate on dates, birthdays and ages - but I am not so sure about the past) - maybe (if born in the 1860's mid would say 1864, 65 or 66 depending on who they were talking to)
I am guilty of changing my place of birth from 'Tittensor' to 'Swinnerton' and back again - there's not a lot off difference and it will annoy my descendents researching our family tree.....
The 'Peter Pan of the Brown family' is equally flexible about his place of birth - over some miles - but in his defence I think he was in a workhouse as a child so may not have had too much knowledge of his origins.
good luck with your research
cheers
simon |
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Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:14 am | |
| Tittensor? Sime your kidding? |
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SRB1965
Posts : 1255 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:44 am | |
| No Frank,
There was a 'ladies' & maternity unit there at Groundslow Hospital and in the 60's - all first time mothers (in our part of Staffordshire) were sent there......and my mum ended up there and I started off there....
cheers
Sime
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Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:26 pm | |
| Im tempted to make comparisons between the name and the ladies in the maternity home but discretion must prevail. |
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SRB1965
Posts : 1255 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:30 pm | |
| That was exactly why I changed it to Swynnerton.......... |
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| Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Volume V | |
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