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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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 A Case of Mistaken Identity?

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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2133
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

A Case of Mistaken Identity? Empty
PostSubject: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptySun Sep 13, 2020 11:15 am

Below is a detail from an engraving from The Graphic.

A question for the forum, who is receiving his award from Queen Victoria?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I have my own conclusion, which I have previously expressed, and will share with the forum after I have got some responses.

JY
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 848
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 55
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

A Case of Mistaken Identity? Empty
PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptySun Sep 13, 2020 12:53 pm

OK, I'll make a fool of myself first.....Booth?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7591
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptySun Sep 13, 2020 1:49 pm

Edmund Fowler
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptySun Sep 13, 2020 2:58 pm

Sorry guys, the presentation shown dates from December 1879.

Notification of Booth’s Victoria Cross appeared in The London Gazette on 24th February 1880.

Fowler’s Victoria Cross would not be gazetted until 7th April 1882.

So neither suggestions fit the bill I’m afraid.

JY
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptySun Sep 13, 2020 3:19 pm

Hitch
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Kenny



Posts : 405
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Location : Brecon

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PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptySun Sep 13, 2020 3:42 pm

A copy of this print hangs in the Officers' Mess 1 R WELSH at Tidworth.
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptySun Sep 13, 2020 4:29 pm

Frank,

Queen Victoria presented Frederick Hitch with his Victoria Cross at Netley Hospital on 12th August 1879.

Kenny,

I hope that the Regiment knows the facts about the engraving.  

Especially when you see signs such as this at Brecon, about 200 yards from your old office.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

JY
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 848
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Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

A Case of Mistaken Identity? Empty
PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptySun Sep 13, 2020 6:05 pm

I know who it was supposed to be.....but I assume it was not......
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2133
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PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptySun Sep 13, 2020 6:27 pm

Simon,

Come on, be bold.

JY
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Kenny



Posts : 405
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

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PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptySun Sep 13, 2020 6:29 pm

John,

1. The plaque in Brecon was a project started by an enthusiastic senior QDG officer (did not they win the AZW?). I will try and get it corrected.

2. I had a senior moment earlier, sorry - the image (a print which has been later coloured) in the Officers' Mess at Tidworth is very similar - however it is the presentation of the Wreath of Immortelles by QV at Osborne on 28 July 1880.

3. I assume you are referring to the Investiture held by QV at Windsor Castle on 9 December 1879. The Court Circular states:

VCs to: Lt Col Knox Leet, Capt Leach, Lt R C Hart and Cpl W Allan 24th
DCMs to: Sgt J Smith 90th, Pte J Power 24th, Pte W Roy 24th and Tpr R Brown FLH
Colonel Glyn 24th received his CB the previous day (8 December) and stayed at the Castle.
Note the ranks given in the Court Circular.

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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptySun Sep 13, 2020 7:13 pm

Kenny,

Thanks in anticipation for that.  I did mention it to a senior officer on the day, but I think he was more concerned about entertaining his guest at the time.

Yes indeed it is the investiture of 9th December 1879, The Graphic published a double-page spread on 20th December 1879.  The text that accompanied the engraving misidentified the non-commissioned officer receiving his medal, now there’s a couple of clues in my reply, which I know you will pick up on.

JY


Last edited by John Young on Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Missing word)
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Kenny



Posts : 405
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PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptySun Sep 13, 2020 7:30 pm

John,

It is amazing that 'fake news' still occurs.
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 848
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Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

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PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptySun Sep 13, 2020 7:51 pm

Well its sposed to be William Allen.....
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptySun Sep 13, 2020 8:22 pm

Kenny,

Exactly the way I worded it recently.

Simon,

What draws you to that conclusion? The fact that engraving’s text records that? Or that a number of authors have made reference to the engraving in relation to William Allan V.C.?

JY
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 848
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Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

A Case of Mistaken Identity? Empty
PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 5:48 am

Hi John,

I found the original full image on the internet and he was named on it.

Plus William Allen had a moustache.....as does the fella in the engraving....corroborating evidence Wink

Cheers

Simon
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Kenny



Posts : 405
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PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 7:44 am

JY,

But William Allan is given the rank of Corporal in the Court Circular for 9 December 1879. But the recipient in the Graphic engraving is dressed as a full Sergeant. Allan was not promoted to Sergeant until 16 June 1880 while serving with the Militia. Did the artist confuse him with Sgt Smith of 90th?
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 8:17 am

Kenny,

Was not William Allan a Lance Sergeant at time?

You are in fact correct, and to reveal the answer here is the next section of the engraving.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Standing left to right: Trooper Robert Brown, D.C.M., Frontier Light Horse; Private John Power, D.C.M., 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment; Corporal William Roy, D.C.M., 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment & Lance Sergeant William Wilson Allan, V.C., 2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment.

You will note that facings of 24th men are of a similar colour, and that the three of them are depicted as wearing Sphinx collar badge of the 24th.  Contrast that with facings of Colour Sergeant Samuel Smith, the light colour of his cuffs and collar patch, they were buff in colour.  The indistinct collar badge is almost round in design it was the arms of Perth.  Smith’s shako has a darker pom-pom to that of Allan, Light Infantry regiments wore green pom-poms.

What is interesting is the The Graphic worked from photographs taken by a Windsor photographer.  Colour Sergeant Smith’s photograph is still held by the Royal Collection Trust, and has appeared in a number of books.

So as you say Fake News!

JY


Last edited by John Young on Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:31 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Missing word)
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Kenny



Posts : 405
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PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 8:53 am

Yes, Allan was appointed a provisional Lance Sergeant - no red sash and three white chevrons - in Militia battalion on 11 November 1879, but still paid as Corporal. The artist must have been taken in by the grandeur of the occasion.

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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 9:20 am

Kenny,

There is photographic evidence from the same photographer, again held in the Royal Collection Trust, that Allan wore a sash on the day of his investiture.

However, I will caution you not to shout at the screen when you look at the text accompanying the photograph.

JY
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Catiline63

Catiline63

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Location : Burgess Hill, West Sussex

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PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 11:05 am

Colour Sergeant Samuel Smith of the 90th LI, receiving his DCM.
This photo taken after the event.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Regards,
Lee
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity?   A Case of Mistaken Identity? EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 11:29 am

Lee,

What seems odd to me is the illustrator - or the engraver - has omitted the crossed Union Flags & Crown above the chevrons that denoted the rank of Colour Sergeant when worn on a tunic. Especially as they have depicted Reginald Clare Hart, V.C., Royal Engineers, who appears in my first posting wearing the plumed bicorn hat, as wearing his Royal Humane Society awards. Clearly showing - in my opinion - their attention to detail.

JY
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