Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Posts : 875 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 56 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
Subject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity? Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:05 pm
I know who it was supposed to be.....but I assume it was not......
John Young
Posts : 2224 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 65 Location : Lower Sheering, Essex
Subject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity? Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:27 pm
Simon,
Come on, be bold.
JY
Kenny
Posts : 433 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon
Subject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity? Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:29 pm
John,
1. The plaque in Brecon was a project started by an enthusiastic senior QDG officer (did not they win the AZW?). I will try and get it corrected.
2. I had a senior moment earlier, sorry - the image (a print which has been later coloured) in the Officers' Mess at Tidworth is very similar - however it is the presentation of the Wreath of Immortelles by QV at Osborne on 28 July 1880.
3. I assume you are referring to the Investiture held by QV at Windsor Castle on 9 December 1879. The Court Circular states:
VCs to: Lt Col Knox Leet, Capt Leach, Lt R C Hart and Cpl W Allan 24th DCMs to: Sgt J Smith 90th, Pte J Power 24th, Pte W Roy 24th and Tpr R Brown FLH Colonel Glyn 24th received his CB the previous day (8 December) and stayed at the Castle. Note the ranks given in the Court Circular.
John Young
Posts : 2224 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 65 Location : Lower Sheering, Essex
Subject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity? Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:13 pm
Kenny,
Thanks in anticipation for that. I did mention it to a senior officer on the day, but I think he was more concerned about entertaining his guest at the time.
Yes indeed it is the investiture of 9th December 1879, The Graphic published a double-page spread on 20th December 1879. The text that accompanied the engraving misidentified the non-commissioned officer receiving his medal, now there’s a couple of clues in my reply, which I know you will pick up on.
JY
Last edited by John Young on Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Missing word)
Kenny
Posts : 433 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon
Subject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity? Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:30 pm
John,
It is amazing that 'fake news' still occurs.
SRB1965
Posts : 875 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 56 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
Subject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity? Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:51 pm
Well its sposed to be William Allen.....
John Young
Posts : 2224 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 65 Location : Lower Sheering, Essex
Subject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity? Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:22 pm
Kenny,
Exactly the way I worded it recently.
Simon,
What draws you to that conclusion? The fact that engraving’s text records that? Or that a number of authors have made reference to the engraving in relation to William Allan V.C.?
JY
SRB1965
Posts : 875 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 56 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
Subject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity? Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:48 am
Hi John,
I found the original full image on the internet and he was named on it.
Plus William Allen had a moustache.....as does the fella in the engraving....corroborating evidence
Cheers
Simon
Kenny
Posts : 433 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon
Subject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity? Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:44 am
JY,
But William Allan is given the rank of Corporal in the Court Circular for 9 December 1879. But the recipient in the Graphic engraving is dressed as a full Sergeant. Allan was not promoted to Sergeant until 16 June 1880 while serving with the Militia. Did the artist confuse him with Sgt Smith of 90th?
John Young
Posts : 2224 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 65 Location : Lower Sheering, Essex
Subject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity? Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:17 am
Kenny,
Was not William Allan a Lance Sergeant at time?
You are in fact correct, and to reveal the answer here is the next section of the engraving.
Standing left to right: Trooper Robert Brown, D.C.M., Frontier Light Horse; Private John Power, D.C.M., 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment; Corporal William Roy, D.C.M., 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment & Lance Sergeant William Wilson Allan, V.C., 2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment.
You will note that facings of 24th men are of a similar colour, and that the three of them are depicted as wearing Sphinx collar badge of the 24th. Contrast that with facings of Colour Sergeant Samuel Smith, the light colour of his cuffs and collar patch, they were buff in colour. The indistinct collar badge is almost round in design it was the arms of Perth. Smith’s shako has a darker pom-pom to that of Allan, Light Infantry regiments wore green pom-poms.
What is interesting is the The Graphic worked from photographs taken by a Windsor photographer. Colour Sergeant Smith’s photograph is still held by the Royal Collection Trust, and has appeared in a number of books.
So as you say Fake News!
JY
Last edited by John Young on Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:31 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Missing word)
Kenny
Posts : 433 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon
Subject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity? Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:53 am
Yes, Allan was appointed a provisional Lance Sergeant - no red sash and three white chevrons - in Militia battalion on 11 November 1879, but still paid as Corporal. The artist must have been taken in by the grandeur of the occasion.
John Young
Posts : 2224 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 65 Location : Lower Sheering, Essex
Subject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity? Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:20 am
Kenny,
There is photographic evidence from the same photographer, again held in the Royal Collection Trust, that Allan wore a sash on the day of his investiture.
However, I will caution you not to shout at the screen when you look at the text accompanying the photograph.
JY
Catiline63
Posts : 19 Join date : 2019-08-24 Location : Burgess Hill, West Sussex
Subject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity? Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:05 am
Colour Sergeant Samuel Smith of the 90th LI, receiving his DCM. This photo taken after the event.
Posts : 2224 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 65 Location : Lower Sheering, Essex
Subject: Re: A Case of Mistaken Identity? Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:29 am
Lee,
What seems odd to me is the illustrator - or the engraver - has omitted the crossed Union Flags & Crown above the chevrons that denoted the rank of Colour Sergeant when worn on a tunic. Especially as they have depicted Reginald Clare Hart, V.C., Royal Engineers, who appears in my first posting wearing the plumed bicorn hat, as wearing his Royal Humane Society awards. Clearly showing - in my opinion - their attention to detail.