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» Bearing The Cross by Ken Blakeson | BBC RADIO DRAMA: Ken Blakeson's play tells the story of the Battle of Rorke's Drift and the effect it had on three of the soldiers who fought in it.
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 Isandlwana, Last Stands

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ymob
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90th
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 12, 2013 11:21 am

90th
Im pretty sure the expending rate was a lot more than 6-8 per hour. On that basis there would have been around 1000 rounds spread over nearly 200 metres, 5 to the meter hardly a great concentration. Or would it be worth calling a great concentration. Again reading Malindi, they expended there amunition and were re plenished. Im pretty sure if they were then so were the redcoats.
Popes phrase, "we were giving it to them hot."
H company, moving forward to the edge of the ridge to fire down into the packed ranks.
CS Wolff and 20 men as the rearguard, banging away like mad.
Pretty sure the quantity of cartridges would have been in the thousands.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 12, 2013 11:22 am

LH
Malindi specifically states they were re supplied.

Cheers
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana ; Last Stands    Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 12, 2013 2:42 pm

Hi Springy .
As usual much conjecture about Isandlwana , we wouldnt have it any other way would we ?
Cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 12, 2013 3:31 pm

agree 
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 12, 2013 6:37 pm

Would other Compaines have been providing covering fire for the fall back of the Compaines inquestion.  Or would it have been to late?
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 12, 2013 8:40 pm

90th wrote:
Hi Springy .
I doubt very much that there were anything like 11,900 cartridges in that area , we know from other Battles like Khambula , Gingindlovhu & Ulundi that the rates of fire were not quick , they were called the old steady shots because they didnt fire off rounds quickly , many of them were experienced troops .  I doubt those 170 were in the same area long enough to have fired of the said rounds , going by expenditure from the other battles those 170 men would needed to have been in that same spot firing away for 10 hours or so ! , as you can see the time required to exhaust those rounds didnt happen , wasnt it over in 2 hrs or less ? . From memory there were only 6 -8 per hour fired at the other battles , Isandlwana by most reports was over fairly quickly , so allowing for that
those 170 men wouldnt have fired off 70 rounds before withdawing, the time doesnt stack up .
Cheers 90th Salute 
90th At Isandlwana a man under those conditions would have used his 70 rounds in just under 12 mins based on 6 rounds per min When you consider where they were, the firing would have been quite rapid. So it's plausible!
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 12, 2013 9:01 pm

I still think not enough emphasis is put on the fact that the Martini Henry rifle was prone to fowling & jamming. Can it really be accepted that there were no problems with the rifles. and would a man, really stop to un-jam a rifle with thousands of Zulu moving towards him. Or would he do the most practical thing, and run in the opposite direction. Do we not base the idea that there was no problems at Isandlwana because only one mentions having problems at RD. 
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 12, 2013 10:42 pm

Problem is of course there was no alive to complain?
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana ; Last Stands    Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyFri Sep 13, 2013 3:04 am

Littlehand .
If you read my post slowly you'll see I'm talking of 6 - 8 shots fired per HOUR ! , not per minute as you posted ! scratch 
90th.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyFri Sep 13, 2013 7:23 am

90th We are talking Isandlwana (F) Location. doesn't really matter what other battles fired or didn't or how long they took to fire.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyFri Sep 13, 2013 7:49 am

Rates of fire, supply of ammunition! All means very little really when there is indications on three seperate maps ( Mainwaring, Anstey and Norris Newman) all agree that there was a major firing line with a lot of expended cartridge cases. No more than a couple of yeasr ago, while researching HCMDB Mike Snook took up a firing position nestled into the rocks to get a feeling of the fight, he dislodged a rock and saw 6 empty cases. I have two I found in the same position, unfortunatly the photo is a little blurred.
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They are still there.

Cheers
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyFri Sep 13, 2013 8:15 am

Springbok. I think your find, Snook found them near a boulder on the slopes of the Devil's pass Hlobane, Neil was with him, and there are photo's somewhere on the forum!
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana ; Last stands    Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyFri Sep 13, 2013 8:19 am

John I was attempiting to answer Littlehands post from yesterday ! . No 
90th.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyFri Sep 13, 2013 8:25 am

But it's not relevant to the question!  (F) location Isandlwana and empty cartridges is?
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyFri Sep 13, 2013 9:50 am

Hi John
No, that was a separate occasion that Neil located some casings.

Cheers
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptySun Jul 20, 2014 8:37 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
B&W

On the reference table (I) who would have been in that area? Cains  
Some may need a magnifying glass.

source:http://ayfamilyhistory.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/z-is-for-zulu-war.html
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptySun Jul 20, 2014 9:58 pm

13-11-1879,Photographed at the Intelligence Branch,
Quarter Master General's Dept. July 1880. i have an
original copy as some know, but i'm afraid it is to big
to get under my home scanner. shame as the image
would be crystal clear. well done littlehand..always
the man who can.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptySun Jul 20, 2014 10:13 pm

The cains you speak of LH. Isn't that where Roberts was supposedly killed by British artillery?
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptySun Jul 20, 2014 10:16 pm

Littlehand,

The two cannon of N/5 were positioned at point H, according to the Mainwaring map and were shelling the Zulu at the 'kraal' at point I.  I presume this was the location of the 'friendly fire' incident involving Roberts of No. 2 Troop, Zikhali's Horse.

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There are three cairns: one in front of the mountain in front of the letter 'F'; another to the right of the letter 'E' and one to the left of 'C'.

Here's the map's legend - like Les I have one too.

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The Legend of Lt. Mainwaring's Map.


John Y.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptySun Jul 20, 2014 11:13 pm

Does anyone have a clearer map! Or as clear as JY images.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptySun Jul 20, 2014 11:16 pm

24th,

Will this do?

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If you follow the link it is rather large!

John Y.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptySun Jul 20, 2014 11:24 pm

That will do nicely. Thanks John!
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 21, 2014 8:11 am

LH
The point 'I' on the Mainwaring map is below the ridge in more or less the same position as the present day church. In the Biography of Rev Smith by Canon Lumis it is mentioned the amount of bodies they had to move away to establish their campsite. The position of the Roberts issue is wide open to speculation. There were other kraals on the heights, two of which are mentioned in the Zulu statements.

Cheers
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 21, 2014 9:13 am

If someone was walking away from Isandlwana. Which direction would they be walking. If they could see the whole of Isandlwana in the form of a lion behind them. Would it be towards location (I)
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 21, 2014 9:23 am

LH Due East, more down towards point 'G' and beyond.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 21, 2014 3:17 pm

Just seeing how high the dpi will go!

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 21, 2014 3:17 pm

so thats at 4000 dpi.
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 21, 2014 5:16 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
so thats at 4000 dpi.

It opened instantly and I could read where it said "very broken ground" pretty clearly.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 21, 2014 8:08 pm

Springbok, would that be in the direction of the place we are discussing off line?
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 22, 2014 11:22 am

LH
Exactly the place.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 22, 2014 11:50 pm

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Does anyone know if the stone wall was in place during the Battle 1879. If not a wall, what could it have been? Information appricated.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 8:25 am

LH
There are a couple of possibilities
Attached is a photo of the Colonial graves, you can see a section of wall to the left.
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Alternatly there are a number of erosion barriers on the site
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There is somewhere a reference to a wall built by the engineers but I think that position refered to is on the saddle.

Cheers
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptySun Apr 21, 2019 11:53 pm

I just happen to open this page and after reading trooper Granger testimony he mentions of fighting behind a cattle kraal below blacks koppie it is on Mainwaring map positioned beside the Kraal the above photo looks like a modern wall but it is located close to the one Trooper Granger made his short stand from before he made escape.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyMon Apr 22, 2019 9:54 am

The exact location of Granger's stone wall (kraal) is given by a contemporary map and photos of its remains on pp. 70-1 of my Granger Essay in Studies in the Zulu War Vol. V.  Littlehand's photo has no date that it was taken (though clearly a colour photo must be fairly modern).  Frank is the best person to answer inkosi's question as he walked the ground and took the photos of the remains of the ruined kraal for the Granger essay.  He would know immediately if it was the same location.
Certainly, Littlehand, I would be interested to learn your photo's date.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyMon Apr 22, 2019 10:49 am

im pretty sure thats a Gabion, built to stop erosion just below the Colonial graves. The 'Grainger ' wall is some 200 metre to the South on the other side of the road.

frank
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyMon Apr 22, 2019 4:33 pm

See, inkosi? I knew Frank was your man!
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyTue Apr 23, 2019 7:59 am

I DID SAY IT WAS A MODERN WALL
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyTue Apr 23, 2019 10:35 am

Well, you said it 'looks like a modern wall' but rightly made the link to Granger. It is good to clear up that the two are unrelated and not to be confused.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyThu May 09, 2019 12:36 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
LH
There are a couple of possibilities
Attached is a photo of the Colonial graves, you can see a section of wall to the left.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Alternatly there are a number of erosion barriers on the site
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

There is somewhere a reference to a wall built by the engineers but I think that position refered to is on the saddle.

Cheers

Bonjour,
Just for information:
Burial party (1880): Lieut. O' Connell, 60th Rifles.
"A trench was dug on the upper side of the place where the Carbineers were buried, and a small wall made along the side of the trench to prevent the earth falling into it and filling it up again. This will prevent the water running down the hill and washing the earth of these graves".
Cheers
frédéric
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyThu May 09, 2019 1:44 pm

Fred there is a structure matching your description, Ive sent you a photo, if your able possibly you could post it.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyThu May 09, 2019 4:18 pm

Frank's photo.

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Steve
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyThu May 09, 2019 4:34 pm

Bonjour Steve,
Thank you very much.
Cordialement.
Fred
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 24, 2020 8:51 pm

Mike Snooks book has quite a lot to say about last stands although it drifts in reconstruction in this point in the narrative. From memory he has Durnford making a last stand with the Quartermaster (Pullen?)
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyFri Sep 25, 2020 8:03 am

Hi,

I believe Pullen tried to rally some retreating British soldiers and attempted to halt the turning motion of the Zulu left horn....said something like "come on lads don't be running away like a parcel of women....." and headed off towards Blacks Kopje (which was the area where Durnford was). Think it was Brickhill who recounted this.

Durnfords last stand was in that area but I am not sure QM Pullen linked up with him.

Traditionally AWD was in a stand with Lt Scott & volunteers (NMP & NC)- though undoubtedly other troops would have rallied on him.

Cheers

Simon
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyFri Sep 25, 2020 9:13 am

There is no evidence that Pullen's stand was linked with Durnford's.
I think Snook married the two up because some 20 or so Redcoats were found among the Durnford stand.
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Bill8183




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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyMon Nov 02, 2020 2:38 pm

Mike Snook's theory seems to state QM Pullen took with him his Pioneer section to fight the left horn. According to the 1877 circular the War Establishment of an Infantry Battalion, the Pioneers were not authorised to carry rifles. Is it possible that they had spare rifles available? The Band, Buglers/Drummers, Pioneers and Staff Sgts only carried swords. (S/Sgts were authorised pistols in addition)
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyMon Nov 02, 2020 4:13 pm

Bill8183
It was the pioneers whose job it was to open the ammunition boxes under the QM's supervision. Their position in any conflict would be by the ammunition waggons. Looking at their photograph they all look tough, battle-hardened soldiers. I am sure they would all be well-versed in using a rifle and there would have been a supply on hand.
Mike's suggestion is based on the notion that where Pullen was, so must the pioneers have been. But this is of course not necessarily so. Pullen was seen trying to halt and gather round him fugitives to take them off to the extreme right behind the 1/24th tents. By this time the pioneers could have been literally anywhere depending on orders received (or dead) and so Mike's suggestion, being given without any primary source, is pure speculation.
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyTue Nov 03, 2020 9:18 am

Hi,

I would assume (and its only my assumption) that the Battalion would have had number of spare rifles (each battalion had an 'Armourer') attached to the HQ?

Obviously his role was to repair weapons and I feel he must have had some spares (in case of total right offs) or previous casualties weapons in storage.

Where these weapons were and how easy they were to access is another matter but given enough time the Pioneers could have got their hands on rifles.

Ta

Sime

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyTue Nov 03, 2020 10:18 am

Simon your comment:

"I believe Pullen tried to rally some retreating British soldiers and attempted to halt the turning motion of the Zulu left horn....said something like "come on lads don't be running away like a parcel of women....." and headed off towards Blacks Kopje (which was the area where Durnford was). Think it was Brickhill who recounted this."

Pullen was 1/24th so his wagons would have been above the 1/24th tents directly below the kopie.

Frank
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 2 EmptyWed Nov 04, 2020 7:20 am

Hi Frank,

Brickhill says he met the QM 'above the 1/24th tents' and after an interchange he (QM) headed off "towards the front of the stoney kopje". He also says the the QM 'turned to him.......'

Obviously 'above' and 'front' are all sort of relative to your location and direction of facing.

Was QM with his wagons, when he met Brickhill? To me it indicates that the QM was further up towards the nek.....why didn't Brickhill say he met the QM at his wagons? (just his words I spose) but moving off towards the 'front' of the Kopje, seems to indicated the QM was not already at the front of the kopje

Immediately prior to meeting Pullen, Brickhill say he went 'down' towards the 1/24th where he spoke to Du Bois.

Brickhill seems to have been 'in front of the column office' having failed to get a weapon, watching the battle unfold.

Anyway.....hows Lockdown going?

Ta

Sime



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