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 Isandlwana, Last Stands

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7700
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyWed Nov 04, 2020 12:31 pm

Always a debatable issue Sime, isnt everything on this bloody battle.
Having spent the odd minute or so there let me venture an opinion/idea.
The 1/24th rear line of tents was probably a hundred metre or so below the slope of the kopie base. They had to be because in between were the mess tents and the battalion wagons, that would include Pullens place of business.
He would I assume have been rather busy dishing out ammunition, even though he seems to have had a rather able assistant, (Ammo bas, ammo bas). Ive tried to figure out on a few ( hundred ) occasions why on earth a Quarter Master would abandon the very core of his existence. His supplies!
The place of Durnfords stand/death again is a whole subject on its own to idle away the odd lifetime or so. Traditionally he fought to his last below Mahlabamkosi fighting of the left horn, if that were true then why was his body found so far away? There seems little doubt these days as to the general area, within a few metre, where Durnford died and it wasnt right below the koppie.
Just below the traditional Durnford death spot is the area that Grainger was fighting with a group of 24th men. He was called back into line by Scott ( to my mind the bloke who led the rearguard) All that took place to the north and probably slightly below the rear line of tents, next to the track.
So heres the niggly bit, IF Pullen was heading of to the front of the kopie he would have been going sideways, southerly direction, not north or north east to join Durnford.
I trust Brickhill quite a lot, it takes guts to relate the story of him abandoning Gamble in the stream bed, so theres no real reason to doubt his word.
So as an interpretation, Brickhill would probably have met Pullen fairly close to his 'office', Pullen moves South grabbing all and sundry on the way, Brickhill for G-D knows what reason heads into the jaws of death to have a word with Du Boise (Due East) and Durnford is about to join up with Scott (over to the North) after having been across to the other side of the track looking for Pulleine ( He was witnessed over there)
Does that make any sort of sense?
Lock downs not been to bad really gave me the chance to considerably reduce the size of the job-jar. We had had a couple of scares, daughter and grandson both had the virus, but all are now recovered and we are out of isolation so next week its of to iSandlwana for the commemeration and for me to go and do some restoration work on my cairns.
One thing though, have a word with your bosses, my Wagon Wheels ( Been eating them for close to 70 years) have undergone a shrinking exersize and a price escalation, really not charmed about that one.

Sorry one last thought, those squaddie tents are damned high and wide the 1/24th would have had around 50 or so, thats a huge chunk of blockage to the site lines. Brickhill must have been bloody nuts.

Cheers mate and enjoy your latest lock down. I know JY always enjoys it, gives him chance to do some gardening.
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2222
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Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyWed Nov 04, 2020 3:45 pm

Following on from Frank’s comment, this is tented encampment of the 1st/24th photographed at Wynberg, near Cape Town in January 1875.

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1st/24th’s Camp, Wynberg, 1875.
(John Young Collection.)

Obviously this is the camp of the complete battalion, the 1st/24th’s lines at iSandlwana were smaller, due to the absent companies.

JY
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyWed Nov 04, 2020 4:07 pm

Hi John
My point being that there could be a 10 000 strong impi charging down on you from the Claremont side and you wouldnt see them. iSandlwana would not have been much different from the south/left horn.
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyWed Nov 04, 2020 4:19 pm

Frank,

Not an issue, just trying to convey the length & width of 1st/24th’s camp lines.

As to the gardening - the gardener has just done the pruning and scarified the lawn. Worth every penny!

JY
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2415
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyWed Nov 04, 2020 4:52 pm

Frank
I think your summary just about sums up the Pullen situation quite accurately.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyWed Nov 04, 2020 5:10 pm

John would you agree that at iSandlwana the tents would have been a lot closer?
Julian Im busy encapsulation the Western Slope into a small essay, I want to quote from one of your articles but I will e mail you.
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyWed Nov 04, 2020 6:42 pm

Frank,

Yes indeed, as per the engraving based on Fowler’s sketch.

JY
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Herbie



Posts : 74
Join date : 2017-11-16
Age : 55
Location : Epsom, Surrey

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyThu Nov 05, 2020 12:40 am

John’s photo has by my reckoning 8 rows of 14 tents each in the company lines. A bell tent held between 8 to 16 men I believe so perhaps 3 tents per full strength section and another 1 or 2 for the company officers in 1875 would fit that I guess although by 1879 with reduced battalion strength i recon they would have only needed maybe 9 per company at most. Battalion headquarters on top of this of course but I assume there are a few more tents for the HQ staff near the Large HQ tent?
Phil
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyThu Nov 05, 2020 4:20 am

Herbie
1/24th had approx 415 complement.
The tents accomadated 6 men and equipment so very close to 70 tents plus additional officers tents, mess tents, regimental HQ, farriers, cook house etc.
Probably 75 to 80 tents. Each tent was 14' diameter with the guy ropes extending the required diameter to 20' or 6meter, the height at the pole was 12' or approx 3.6m.
Hope that helps.
Frank
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 875
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Age : 56
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyThu Nov 05, 2020 7:26 am

Ah... the age old debate, that even the most sagest of students (J's Young and Whybra) can't answer in confidence.....have Wagonwheels shrunk?......do things appear bigger in the memory (or mirrors)?.....Is it just that Franks hands have got bigger since when he was 5 years old?.....

Maybe we will never know......

Cheers

Sime

PS Wagonwheels are made by Burtons......we only make the cheap (sorry, 'everyday' I believe its called) stuff.....if your cows are looking the wrong way on your Malted Milk its my fault (Oh yes the cows can be left or right facing....not a lot of people know that).....Though - that said Burtons were interested in buying us a couple of years ago...the women on Night Shift put them off though......
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SRB1965

SRB1965

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Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyThu Nov 05, 2020 9:12 am

[quote="Frank Allewell
Sorry one last thought, those squaddie tents are damned high and wide the 1/24th would have had around 50 or so, thats a huge chunk of blockage to the site lines. Brickhill must have been bloody nuts. [/quote]

Maybe with Brickies eyesight problems and the fact that the tents were in the way.....perhaps he thought "Oh I wonder what's going on there? I'll go and have a nosey"

Would the slope of the ground helped with visibility over the tents, until the Zulus were in the dead ground (obscured by the tents)?

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyThu Nov 05, 2020 9:14 am

Ah Sime but we do know!
Having a 7 year old grandson I gave him a waggon wheel and took a photo as he had his first bite - and his last, didnt like it and chucked it away, brat!- anyway I compared that photo with one taken of me in Blackpool at the same age. Mouth versus waggon wheel ( dont go there Sime) size, they have shrunk. So definite scientific proof.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyThu Nov 05, 2020 9:18 am

Sime at a distance yes the slope would help but not at closer range. Classic example of that was Chard not seeing any officers or the regiment on parade on the morning of the 22nd. Wasnt there another similar comment, Brickhill, saying he couldnt see the front line?
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2415
Join date : 2011-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyThu Nov 05, 2020 9:42 am

There is another mention of a group still fighting on the extreme right of the camp (with no officer being named) in a survivor's account (i.e. in addition to Brickhill). I think he wrote that he considered joining them but didn't think it would be much use and so rode on. David Jackson always believed that this could only have referred to Pullen's group.
For reasons I won't bore you with, all my notes and my entire study are inaccessible at the moment, so others will have to remember who the survivor was.
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 875
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Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyThu Nov 05, 2020 11:36 am

Apparently, in Australia - Wagon Wheels are 14mm bigger than in the UK (@88mm) but 4mm thinner (which is why Gary/90th can only fit two in his mouth at one time......) - supposedly still the old UK spec.

Damn tricky thing is biscuit baking......y'all should show them more respect when dipping them in your tea.....we used to have a biscuit knocker whose job it was to break the outside biscuits in a pack but that's done my a machine now.....progess I spose....
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90th

90th

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Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Isandlwana , Last stands    Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyFri Nov 06, 2020 3:37 am

Sime I could probably fit 3 in my gob based on their present day size , not even 1 back in the / their day ! , last time I bought a wagon wheel , or the similar based product... I thought I instantly spotted a reduction in size by 30 % , and 20 % in their thickness ! . You biscuit people are all the same ...always driving me crackers ! .
90th Very Happy Very Happy
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 875
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Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyFri Nov 06, 2020 7:25 am

Oh crumbs.......I wish Frank hadn't mentioned it now...... Joker

Cheers

Sime

ps what is a 'biscuit person'? - a bit like a Gingerbread Man?.....Was Garibaldi a biscuit person?.....

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John Young

John Young

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Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyFri Nov 06, 2020 9:35 am

Sime,

Odd you should mention Garibaldi, as his name came up in conversation with a mate in KZN.  Giuseppe Garibaldi was born in Nice, part of France since the 2nd Empire, but previously claimed by two pre-unification Italian kingdoms.  So officially Giuseppe was a biscuit man from a biscuit city.

Doesn’t that take the biscuit?

On the other debate I concur with the fundi from the Mother City - they have shrunk!

Totally off topic Off Topic Off Topic Off Topic

JY
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyFri Nov 06, 2020 9:42 am

I know Im going to be in trouble over this:

Did you hear about the fight in the biscuit tin?
The bandit hit the penguin over the head with a club, tied him to a wagon wheel with a blue ribbon, and made his breakaway in a taxi, escaping along the rocky road to mars, the milky way, and the Galaxy.
Sad
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2415
Join date : 2011-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyFri Nov 06, 2020 9:52 am

And, while we're on the Topic, no doubt chased by a Lion Bar none.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyFri Nov 06, 2020 10:04 am

Friend of mine got a job in a biscuit factory. He kneaded the dough.
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2415
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptyFri Nov 06, 2020 11:48 am

You loy have inspired me to relive childhood memories. I went out and bought a waggon wheel pack this morning. Congrats.
P.S. They are definitely smaller.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana , Last stands    Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptySat Nov 07, 2020 4:03 am

Sime , Frank , JY and Julian
Excellent conversation re the Biscuits , Frank stick to research , I can't see a career for you as a Standup comedian !Joker Joker . Julian you certainly would've noticed the difference in size ? , Sime whatever you do , do not change the recipe for the Chocolate Digestives !
90th Salute Salute Very Happy Very Happy
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptySat Nov 07, 2020 7:37 am

Ha, bloody aussies, no sense of humour. Joker Joker Joker
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana , Last stands    Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptySun Nov 08, 2020 11:54 am

Frank
Hahahahahaha Joker Joker Joker Joker
90th Very Happy
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptySun Nov 08, 2020 12:28 pm

Frank,

I dare not mention Cadbury’s long defunct Skippy just in case Smoko thinks it was made from his national hero.

Still off topic, I know.

Off Topic Off Topic Off Topic
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana , Last stands    Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptySun Nov 08, 2020 12:38 pm

Hi JY
Skippy ?? , don't you mean the Caramello Bear ?? . Can't say I've ever seen a chocolate skippy , unless it was an English thing ?
90th
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptySun Nov 08, 2020 1:13 pm

Gary,

Check your e-mail. By-the-way Chips is on later in The Desert Rats.

JY
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana , Last stands    Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 3 EmptySun Nov 08, 2020 1:21 pm

Have done and replied JY . 12.20 am , sorry but no chips tonight , I think I have it on my Chips dvd ?
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