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 Barker's early morning movement

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gardner1879

gardner1879

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PostSubject: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyMon Feb 01, 2021 9:16 am

This post has nothing to do with his toilet routine but more his attempt to flush out the Zulus.
In relation to my earlier post, I have been looking at  Barker’s early timings and the geography and trying to make them work by pouring over  maps and photographs as well as using my own ‘on the ground research’
By trying to look through his eyes only and  only using his account and timings and nobody else’s I have come up with the following.
Barker’s words are in blue and my own thoughts are in red:-

I was on Vedette duty next day with every available man under Lieut. Scott.  We left camp at about 4 a.m., and the Carbineers were posted to the direct front and left of the camp, from three to five miles away.  
Whitelaw and a.n. other is posted on iThusi  ( 2.5 miles away  though with the climb up this could be about 3miles) and Hawkins and Barker are on Nyezi. 5.2 miles away. With Chelmsford in the South East the north-eastern post of Nyezi could have been chosen to cover that area.
Hawkins, my bosom friend, and myself were posted on a hill to the extreme front , quite six miles from camp, and arrived on the hill about sunrise.  
It is  5.29 miles as the crow flies from the camp to Nyezi which, with a bit of Donga work, could seem like six to Barker.
After being posted for about a quarter of an hour we noticed a lot of mounted men in the distance, and on their coming nearer we saw that they were  trying to surround us.  We gave the usual signal, (to Whitelaw) but had to retire off the hill post haste, as we discovered they were Zulus.  We retired  to Lieut. Scott, about two miles nearer camp, and informed him of what we had seen,
Two miles nearer the camp would put Scott just to the south of the base of Ithusi 3 miles out.
and he decided to come back with us, but before we had gone far we saw Zulus on the hill we had just left, (Nyezi) and others advancing from the left flank where two other videttes, Whitelaw and another, had been obliged to retire from.  
Whitelaw  retiring  from iThusi
Whitelaw reported a large army advancing, “Thousands” I remember him distinctly stating,
These could be Zulus seen spilling out of the Ngwebani valley to the north
and he was immediately sent back to the camp with the report.  This would be about eight a.m.  He returned with a message to Lieut. Scott that we were to watch the enemy carefully and send back reports of their movements.  
To go back to the camp, give his report then, after been given a reply, riding back, say 30 to 40 minutes at speed on horseback . At an average walking speed of 1.67 mph it takes 2hrs and 10 minutes to walk from the camp to the middle of the old ‘historical’ notch by iThusi.
Shortly afterwards, numbers of Zulus being seen on all the hills to the left and front, Trooper Swift and another were sent back to report.  The Zulus then remained on the hills, and about two hundred of them advanced to within three hundred yards of us, but on our advancing they retired out of sight, and a few of us went up to this hill
The Zulus have appeared on iThusi and the eastern end of the Inyoni ridge. Upon the Zulus retiring Barker and others go back up onto iThusi or the Inyoni ridge  to see what is happening. Ithusi would be a very  difficult climb but there is a track I discovered in 2015 that goes through new woodland to the west of the geographical cul-de-sac of the ‘historical notch’ . It is easy going and in 2015 we followed some Zulu herds boys who were mounted on mules.
where the Zulus had disappeared, and on a further hill, at about six hundred yards distance, we saw a large army sitting down.  
A further hill? There is a further hill, Mabaso, but this is a lot further than 6oo yards so they are somewhere to the north by the Ngwebani valley?
We returned to Lieut. Scott, who was then about three miles from camp,
So Scott seems to be still at the base of Ithusi which is three miles from the camp but from the last sentence could have moved or be moving  back to the camp.
and reported what we had seen.  Hawkins and I were then sent back to camp to report a large army to the left front of the camp.  On our way back we noticed the Zulus advancing slowly, and when about a mile and a half from the camp we met the rocket battery, who enquired the enemy’s whereabouts.
If Barker took the direct route back from Scott at the base of iThusi to the camp, he would pass between Amatutshane and the iNyoni ridge which would mean the rocket battery were travelling towards him in the same area. This route is difficult though as he would have had  to have negotiated the ‘fingers’ of two large dongas.
We advised the office to proceed to where Lieut. Scott was stationed, but he asked if he could get up the hill to his left.  We informed him that the Zulus were advancing towards that hill and most probably would be seen on it within half an hour.  

I have not been up Nyezi though it is on my list for the next time I go over .
Frank , have you been up there? Gary I know you have with the Major. What is the visibility like from up there and what advantages does it give you?
There are problems with the above ponderings as you can see. For instance  in order to make it work I have had to push Scott out from Amatutshane to the base of iThusi but as I said at the beginning I am only using Barker’s numbers and trying to make them fit. As far as I can see if you put Barker anywhere else on the field his distances and observations go out the window.
Any thoughts from anyone else about his timings?
Kate
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyMon Feb 01, 2021 1:22 pm

Hi gardner1879

I have been doing a lot of research concerning this army trooper Barker spotted and your right the most important question that needs to be correct is that hill he starts from some say he was on Itusi, Qwabi and others Nyezi.  I originally thought as the Major did he was on Qwabi one important point he makes and that is when the zulus advanced to take his position he stated he gave a signal to his commanding officer so according to that he was not on Nyezi Scott on Amatushane and Barker on Nyezi have no line of sight so that cancels out  Nyezi.  So the only hill left is Itusi I took a panorama from Itusi back in 2017 and it was back in late 2019 I finally discovered this hill Barker sights the army and he is spot on with his measurements it is in visual sight of Itusi.

So last year as we were in lock down I placed an old video on You tube and if you read my opening comments I go in detail according to Barkers directions were this Zulu army was located and the truth may surprise you Frank and I have a difference of opinion here is the link [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   and if you go to my other video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhCwh6QOJHc&t=2s I go into it in finer detail, how it all happened through the enquires of John Cornell on the following video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhCwh6QOJHc&t=2s  read all the comments

If you read Barker testimony after he sights the army he reports it to Lieut Scott on Amatushane then is sent to HQ then he is on his way back to Itusi but bumps into the rocket battery read his testimony Russel wants to go up the Nqutu ridge and Barker warns him not to go up there, why because this army Barker discovered less than a hour earlier is on the other side of that ridge less than a kilometer away the army moved write under the noses of the picketts without being noticed, hidden behind this hill only a short distance from Itusi.
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gardner1879

gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyMon Feb 01, 2021 1:52 pm

Hey hey Inky
Nice to hear from you. Hope all is well with the trifles Wink
Thanks for the youtube clips i will see if I can access them.
Just one little thing. Above you say

..he stated he gave a signal to his commanding officer so according to that he was not on Nyezi Scott on Amatushane and Barker on Nyezi have no line of sight so that cancels out  Nyezi.

However Barker just says:-

"We gave the usual signal, but had to retire off the hill post haste, as we discovered they were Zulus."

(Bearing in mind in the above post I am just looking at Barker's account and data.)
By the way how many accounts did Barker write? I thought it was just one but am happy to be corrected.

Hope your keeping well. That was a good trip that year and still makes me smile.
Kate Very Happy
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyMon Feb 01, 2021 2:07 pm

Those trifles are just great we need more

To my knowledge Barker only made one account it can be found on Stalkers Natal Carbineers, there is a map showing all the picket positions from another source, I place Barker on Itusi and Whitelaw on the center of the Nqutu ridge, no one was one Qwabi or Nyezi, I sent you a private message and I will eliminate all doubt .
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyTue Feb 02, 2021 6:36 am

Mansell drew a map showing the vedettes, BUT, that was a map showing his placements, not Scotts. The second map is the Narrative, that relies heavily on Essex and Hamer. The third is Hamer himself, BUT as that is long lost we dont know exactly what is marked on there. The other maps, James, Anstey. Smith Dorrien, Gardner, Essex and Norris Newman dont show the positions.
Scott was under orders to, "bring the vedettes in", from I think Cornelious Clery. So there would be a probability that Scott changed the positioning, seeing as his vedettes were driven of the ridge on potentially 2 seperate occasions I would imagine he drastically altered the positions to get a better understanding as to where those two seperate impis travelled to and from.
just my tuppence worth ( thats 2 rands these days)
Cheers
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyTue Feb 02, 2021 9:25 am

Trooper Barler wrote in a letter to his father (Helpmakaar, 25 January 1879), "Poor Hawkins.... and I were placed on a hill about two miles from any of the others. Saw some men go into a hut, when about 20 mounted Zulus skirmished up, trying to surround us. However, we all got back to camp, which we had to defend". Leicester Daily Post, 22 March 1879.

Cheers
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyTue Feb 02, 2021 10:16 am

Hi ymob and Frank

lets give Barker the final word as follows " We left camp around 4am and the Carbineers were posted to the direct front and left to the camp" So he clearly says direct front and left of camp this clearly deletes Nyezi the only high ground to the direct front left to the camp is the Nqutu ridge which is directly infront of the camp it can not be any clearer than that.  Then he goes on to say  " Hawkins my bosom friend and myself were posted on a hill to the extreme front quite six miles from camp" this is were his distances are all wrong but he does state extreme so I interpret this that there was no other picket beyond his position this can only mean its Itusi or Qwabi.  I claim its Itusi but originally I was of the opinion it was Qwabi but I had a change of mind when later in the morning he states discovering a large Zulu army from were he picketed that morning I am off the belief I have found this hill and it is still there now and why no one before me have not work it out I will never know this is clearly Itusi the Major is of the opinion know that Barker was originally on Qwabi and then moved to Itusi,  I am of the belief he was always on Itusi and the distances he gives in locating this large Zulu army only matches Itusi and no other.

Frank have you been to the battlefield since the time I made my case {last year} on this forum of the  events, I sent you a photo of the hill I would be grateful of what you think, if this is the hill I have indicated to you. The next time I will be there will be in 2023 after I retire. I will be making many of my photos available through a website I am in the process of putting it together.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyTue Feb 02, 2021 10:26 am

Hi Inky
Yes I have been back, I went to Charles funeral and yes I did go look at iThusi and yes I still disagree. Im pretty convinced he never went to Qwabe, thats not just an opinion Im pretty confident I can back it up.
Having walked up iThusi yourself you need to ask yourself the question, would i take a horse over that extremely rough ground and put myself in a cul de sac that I could never escape from if the worse came to the worse?
Barker like all the colonials was very veld savvie, these guys were brought up in the saddle with a gun in hand. They explored the countryside and Im positive that when ever they were posted to an area for vedette they would spend time riding around familiarising themselves.
I dont believe he would put himself or his 'bossom buddy' in that sort of position. That being said you are I believe close.
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyTue Feb 02, 2021 10:48 am

Hi Frank

Your correct he was not on Qwabi, so do you place him on Itusi? I have been on Itusi 3 times and most of the rocks which are on Itusi are closest to the ridge itself, the further north even over 100 meters the less rocky it is, and the views from the ridgeline facing north gives you around a 240 degree view clearly a prime picket position and a much more likely location for a vedette on a horse.

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyTue Feb 02, 2021 11:11 am

Fully agree, North of iThusi on the ridge is a trig marker. Thats exactly where I reckon Barker was, for part of the time.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyTue Feb 02, 2021 11:14 am

See if you can locate this :
28° 19' 48.12" S
30° 43' 11.72" E
Its a very interesting piece of real estate.
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gardner1879

gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyTue Feb 02, 2021 11:40 am

Morning Ymob
I've been doing a bit of digging on various Newspaper sites this morning using many different variants of his name and rank.
The British Library does have the Leicester Daily Post in its archives but no trace of anything about Barker from 1st Jan 1879 to the 1st Jan 1880.
Any chance you could post up the entire article for people to read:D ?
Cheers:Salute:
Kate
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyTue Feb 02, 2021 11:50 am

Hi Kate

As you requested.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Leicester Daily Post 22 March 1879

Andy
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyTue Feb 02, 2021 11:54 am

Its behind Nyezi, miles away from Itusi.

Thats were I place the Left horn,  it is from this position the umCijo and uNokenke regiments moved to my location under that distinctive hill and the donga.

Read Higginsons movements he got from Durnford he rode up the Qwabi valley and collides with these Zulus on this rocky hill directly infront of Nyezi,  What he collides with frank is another screening force protecting the location of the Left horn hidden behind Nyezi. the Zulus used these screens to perfection in this battle to understand this battle one needs to understand what screens are mate it took me 6 months of deep in depth research to work this all out and the Zulu are consistent in this strategy they done it with the right horn as well if you can find it.

After all if your going to move your regiments forward it only makes sense to place a screen infront of them as a shield to protect there location.
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyTue Feb 02, 2021 11:58 am

Andy you are an absolute treasure.
Where would we be without you?
Salute Salute
Kate Very Happy
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyTue Feb 02, 2021 12:02 pm

Inki thats a spot that you could hide wembley stadium in. Its an area I believe was used as a holding point for the reserve and left horn elements, there is a direct sheltered ling around the eastern side of mabaso to the valley.
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyTue Feb 02, 2021 12:22 pm

Yes its between Mabaso and Nyezi.

The main army was hidden behind Mabaso thats why it took around 30 minutes until the chest arrived on the battlefield after the first action took place near Mkwene, remember the inGabamaokhosi arrived at the notch just before the arrival of the chest and streamed down the notch to Durnfords donga.

Your correct there was a large impi there and Uguku confirms it read it when he states just as Raw discovered his location he hears gunshots to his left this he confirms as the inGabamakhosi being engaged this being the spot Higginson bumps into the left horn screen at the same time.
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyTue Feb 02, 2021 8:16 pm

Just to confirm for you Frank read at the start of Uguku account he said they thought the inGabamakhosi were engaged  this is early morning around 8am they heard gunshots thinking the above regiment were being attacked by the English so they left the valley to assist them, this then proves the iGabamaokhosi was already out of the valley but upon reaching them they realized those gunshots actually came from Mangeni it is from there behind Nyezi they moved to the location were Barker saw them at around 11am hidden behind that hill I showed you.

So both our versions are almost similar except you believe Raw saw them in the location of the above GPS location.  Barkers find seals it mate there is no other way around it
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Frank Allewell

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Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Barker's early morning movement Empty
PostSubject: Re: Barker's early morning movement   Barker's early morning movement EmptyWed Feb 03, 2021 5:16 am

Inky we still differ widely on the sequence of events and who did what. We do agree on Barkers position and the area the reserve and elements of the left horn were stationed.
Hopefully soon my thoughts will be published.
Cheers mate and stay safe.
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