WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu Dawn:General Lord Chelmsford: For a savage, as for a child, chastisement is sometimes a kindness. Sir Henry Bartle Frere: Let us hope, General, that this will be the final solution to the Zulu problem.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company.
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyYesterday at 8:02 pm by Dash

» William J Hoare 24th Regiment??
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyYesterday at 7:08 pm by Dash

» A few questions regarding Rorke's Drift and Isandlwana
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyFri Mar 01, 2024 8:49 am by Tig Van Milcroft

» Swinburn Carbine issue in AZW
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 12:53 pm by Rob D

» Australians who went to Zululand and fought in the 1879 war.
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 8:39 am by John Young

» Philip Price
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 7:55 am by Julian Whybra

» Alfred Fairlie Henderson
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 7:47 am by RoryReynolds

» August Hammar Letter Dated 6th Jan 1879
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyThu Feb 22, 2024 8:34 pm by Stefaan

» Bearing The Cross by Ken Blakeson | BBC RADIO DRAMA: Ken Blakeson's play tells the story of the Battle of Rorke's Drift and the effect it had on three of the soldiers who fought in it.
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyWed Feb 21, 2024 10:57 am by Julian Whybra

» Letter of officer during Zulu wars.
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyWed Feb 21, 2024 10:47 am by Julian Whybra

» About the second invasion
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyTue Feb 20, 2024 9:14 pm by 90th

» Zulu Festival Brecon July 2024
Videttes flags and signalling EmptySat Feb 17, 2024 7:35 pm by John Young

» Watford band boys killed at iSandlwana
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyFri Feb 16, 2024 8:26 am by Julian Whybra

» Private J. McCrudden 1/13 Foot
Videttes flags and signalling EmptySun Feb 11, 2024 3:10 am by 90th

» Death of Michael Jayson (Zulu Dawn)
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyThu Feb 08, 2024 9:55 pm by ADMIN

» The anniversary of 22nd January in 2024
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyThu Feb 08, 2024 3:51 pm by luke1997

» What was the distance?
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyThu Feb 08, 2024 8:46 am by Stefaan

» Mrs Henry Hook
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyTue Feb 06, 2024 3:14 pm by Kenny

» "With 6 good riflemen"
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyMon Feb 05, 2024 2:30 pm by Mr M. Cooper

» What was G company supposed to do?
Videttes flags and signalling EmptySun Feb 04, 2024 9:31 pm by Julian Whybra

» Private 1445 Charles Meates 17th Lancers and his brother William Wylie
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyFri Feb 02, 2024 10:07 pm by John Young

» South Africa Medal With Clasp To Pvt J. Salter 3/60th
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyFri Feb 02, 2024 3:12 pm by Foody

» Weatherleys Border Horse Flag
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyThu Feb 01, 2024 9:40 pm by Herbie

» Blue Plaque to James Egan, alias Private Hagan
Videttes flags and signalling EmptySun Jan 28, 2024 3:19 pm by Kenny

» Edward Plantagenet Kemeys-Tynte
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyTue Jan 23, 2024 10:06 pm by Edjg

» How many started?
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyTue Jan 23, 2024 10:10 am by Julian Whybra

» Firing Line formation
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyMon Jan 22, 2024 2:32 pm by Julian Whybra

» Why did Maj. Spalding have to go ?
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyWed Jan 17, 2024 9:40 pm by Stefaan

» Grape-shot at close range.
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyMon Jan 15, 2024 7:42 am by SRB1965

» Books Hlobane & Kambula
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyTue Jan 09, 2024 10:08 am by John Young

» 24th Foot Database for Isandlwana
Videttes flags and signalling EmptySun Jan 07, 2024 11:03 am by SRB1965

» South African medal W.J.E. Bawtree, Natal Mounted Police
Videttes flags and signalling EmptySat Jan 06, 2024 9:22 am by briannorris@sos.co.za

» Private 25B/293 J H Meredith 1/24th Regiment kia iSandlwana
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyFri Jan 05, 2024 10:55 pm by Julian Whybra

» 94th Regiment receive AZW medal but not the Natal Mounted Police
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyWed Jan 03, 2024 2:36 pm by MKalny15

» Command and Control
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyWed Jan 03, 2024 7:46 am by Schlaumeier

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
March 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
    123
45678910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728293031
CalendarCalendar
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Top posting users this month
Dash
Videttes flags and signalling Bar_leftVidettes flags and signalling BarVidettes flags and signalling Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Videttes flags and signalling Bar_leftVidettes flags and signalling BarVidettes flags and signalling Bar_right 
Tig Van Milcroft
Videttes flags and signalling Bar_leftVidettes flags and signalling BarVidettes flags and signalling Bar_right 
New topics
» Alfred Fairlie Henderson
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 7:47 am by RoryReynolds

» Australians who went to Zululand and fought in the 1879 war.
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyFri Feb 23, 2024 2:23 am by peterfarrell

» About the second invasion
Videttes flags and signalling EmptySat Feb 17, 2024 9:53 pm by Hobbes

» Zulu Festival Brecon July 2024
Videttes flags and signalling EmptySat Feb 17, 2024 7:35 pm by John Young

» Letter of officer during Zulu wars.
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyThu Feb 15, 2024 4:46 pm by Will M

» Bearing The Cross by Ken Blakeson | BBC RADIO DRAMA: Ken Blakeson's play tells the story of the Battle of Rorke's Drift and the effect it had on three of the soldiers who fought in it.
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyThu Feb 15, 2024 1:24 am by ADMIN

» Philip Price
Videttes flags and signalling EmptySat Feb 10, 2024 1:54 pm by dprice

» Death of Michael Jayson (Zulu Dawn)
Videttes flags and signalling EmptyThu Feb 08, 2024 12:05 pm by Kenny

» A few questions regarding Rorke's Drift and Isandlwana
Videttes flags and signalling EmptySun Feb 04, 2024 7:57 pm by Hobbes

Similar topics
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying.
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address. Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.  If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.  We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes. There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site. The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum. The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
 

 Videttes flags and signalling

Go down 
3 posters
AuthorMessage
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 3458
Join date : 2021-01-04

Videttes flags and signalling Empty
PostSubject: Videttes flags and signalling   Videttes flags and signalling EmptyWed May 26, 2021 10:31 am

This extract  taken from a Natal newspaper titled 'The Camp at Helpmakaar' dated the 1st January 1879 has been something that has niggled me for a long time and I was thinking about it this morning whilst having my cup of tea.

The papers Biggersberg correspondent is commenting on the signalling training and techniques of the colonials and regulars.
It begins thus:-

"Vidette duty and signalling were very successfully taught and learnt by all the volunteers before their removal it is said, that by the signals they have learnt to make, communication can be made to the advancing column over a distance of 24 miles in three minutes. The signals are simple. If an advanced guard halts, and wheels right or left, or puts his horse into motion and describes a large figure of eight, or puts his helmet on his carbine and elevates it above his head, or gallops back in the direction of the advancing column, each and all of these manoeuvres have their meaning, and there are others besides. The Police and Military have been taught signalling with hand flags, doubtless for a different purpose than the signals taught the volunteers are intended for. A visitor to the camp might see nearly every morning two men, Police or soldiers, outside the line of tents, with several flags on the ground beside them. Now they pick up a certain flag and wave it about in a particular direction. In the distance, some two hundred yards or more say, you see two other men, who wave a particular flag in reply. Then, maybe, another flag is picked up, and waved differently; the reply comes from the distance in a similar way. At this mode of signalling these men have practiced for an hour or more daily, until they have become quite expert. At night, I believe, signalling will be done by means of lanterns. Some farmers came and asked, "What are they doing, waving those flags in such a manner?" They were told they were talking to each other, and by this means, they could learn what was going on,in an enemy's country, a long way off in advance of the column; this was replied to by the farmer with a very sceptical shake of he head."

My niggles for people to ponder are listed below:-

1/ Bearing in mind the date the report was written, the 1st January and the camp broke up and began moving towards Rorkes Drift on the 5th how much 'official' signalling training did the colonials actually get? It was obviously felt they needed training as they were getting it.

2/ If Dartnell's police were 'very successfully taught' in the British army use of flags why did he not use this system to keep in contact with the camp when he went out on the 21st? Lanterns at night?

3/ Or why did Chelmsford not order this flag signalling procedure to be put in place. They obviously had the equipment?

4/In the stress of the moment could the colonials have dropped back into their old ad hoc unit specific signalling techniques. Not a problem when its from one trooper to another of the same unit but  a break down could arise when this was then trying to be interpreted by someone outside that unit.
"Whats that Carbineer signalling Bob?" "I've no idea he seems to have pulled down his trousers down and is rubbing the top of his head with a lettuce." "Well that ones not in the book."

5/ If such 'local' unit specific signalling had been fallen back on when the Zulus first appeared could this lead to a delay in trying to ascertain what was meant. We know from Barker and his colleagues accounts of certain techniques that were used.
However if writing an account in a cool tent after the event you would use the correct text book techniques so it was shown you were doing the 'right thing'. If you had dropped your britches  and pulled out an iceberg  you wouldn't put  that in an official account.

What we will never know is were any signals missed because they were not understood or not apparent which could have given the Zulu valuable time early to get into position.

Anyway they are just my morning musings. We often talk of the videttes signalling but just what techniques were they using?
Time for another brew.
Kate:D  
,


Last edited by gardner1879 on Mon May 31, 2021 8:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Videttes flags and signalling Empty
PostSubject: Re: Videttes flags and signalling   Videttes flags and signalling EmptyWed May 26, 2021 12:23 pm

Morning Kate
The only signal Im aware of was Barker circling his horse when aproached by Mehlokazulu. Then of course there was Flashman signalling a need for fresh underware by standing in his saddle at Balaclava.
Back to top Go down
timothylrose




Posts : 110
Join date : 2013-09-07

Videttes flags and signalling Empty
PostSubject: Re: Videttes flags and signalling   Videttes flags and signalling EmptyWed May 26, 2021 1:58 pm

If you can leave it for a few days I'll have a look at what the various manuals say about signalling (I have one for Auxiliary cavalry units somewhere here) - infantry were taught certain signals with rifles when on piquet and they also had a signalling section - I'll see what I can drag out over the weekend
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 3458
Join date : 2021-01-04

Videttes flags and signalling Empty
PostSubject: Re: Videttes flags and signalling   Videttes flags and signalling EmptyWed May 26, 2021 3:44 pm

Thanks Tim.
Good old Flashman, no doubt he came out of the debacle smelling of roses Rolling Eyes
K Very Happy
Back to top Go down
timothylrose




Posts : 110
Join date : 2013-09-07

Videttes flags and signalling Empty
PostSubject: Re: Videttes flags and signalling   Videttes flags and signalling EmptyMon May 31, 2021 6:35 pm

As always things are never simple = tantalisingly reference is made that vedettes should maintain contact with the piquet directly or if not via repeat signals via other vedettes. The Soldiers pocket book suggests that you can make ad hoc signals using flags and even a handkerchief - which would allow them to use Morse code in common with the rest of the army and be read by anyone observing it - there were CODES that could be used to send longer info quickly - like enemy sighted to the front etc - Regular cavalry had signallers who were trained in the same way that the infantry were so I would summise that they would use the same signals with the carbine as the infantry were taught as well. I tried to attach a photo of a 1890's donkey walloper dot dash chap but failed dismally so here is a link to the postcard image - its a fairly common one  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233934596264?hash=item367796a8a8:g:GiQAAOSwYHxWOkwJ
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 3458
Join date : 2021-01-04

Videttes flags and signalling Empty
PostSubject: Re: Videttes flags and signalling   Videttes flags and signalling EmptyMon May 31, 2021 8:21 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Thanks Tim Heres the image.
Kate
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 3458
Join date : 2021-01-04

Videttes flags and signalling Empty
PostSubject: Re: Videttes flags and signalling   Videttes flags and signalling EmptyMon Nov 01, 2021 10:24 pm

Following on from my original post , another little snippet about flags and signalling at he beginning of the campaign which makes me wonder why Lord C did not utilse this medium for communication with his own column.
January 12th at the Tugela

"A large telescope on a swivel stand is at the Colonel's (Pearson) eye while on one side stands a signalman who interprets the orders given him to the other side with wonderful speed and precision. The quickness and ease with which- my means of two small flags held in either hand and waved at different angles, and with different motions- messages can be instantly conveyed between points that are perhaps miles apart..."

The signalmen in the above account were seamen trained in the use of flags. If only Milne had taken a couple up country with him.
I wonder how many flag movements were needed to convey the message
"Come quick or the camp will be overrun"
Kate
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Videttes flags and signalling Empty
PostSubject: Re: Videttes flags and signalling   Videttes flags and signalling EmptyTue Nov 02, 2021 4:52 am

Also: " England expects every man to do his duty"
And
"Send 3 and 4 pence we are going to a dance"
Seem to recall its called semaphore !
Back to top Go down
 
Videttes flags and signalling
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» New Photos
»  The flags of infantry companies of the NNC inJanuary 1879 ...
» Natal Native Infantry flags

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: