Latest topics | » Private James Powell - 24th Regiment Today at 4:00 am by 90th » George Champney Palmes - Medal at auctionYesterday at 5:34 pm by Dash » Anderson, A. 2622 2-24thMon Dec 02, 2024 6:01 pm by Dash » Samuel PoppleSun Dec 01, 2024 10:14 pm by Dash » 25B/671 Pte. J. Machin 2/24th Regiment, KIA IsandlwanaThu Nov 28, 2024 9:43 pm by Tim Needham » John Samuel Jobbins. Rorkes Drift Defender.Thu Nov 28, 2024 12:36 pm by jgregory » The Passing of Lady Ellen Baker.Sat Nov 23, 2024 11:35 pm by John Young » Dr. A. Ralph BusbySat Nov 23, 2024 9:14 am by Julian Whybra » Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home Fri Nov 22, 2024 9:31 am by Julian Whybra » Lieutenant M.G. Wales, 1st Natal Native ContingentSat Nov 16, 2024 12:32 pm by Matthew Turl » Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:55 pm by Julian Whybra » Royal Marine Light Infantry, ChathamThu Nov 14, 2024 7:57 pm by Petty Officer Tom » H.M.S. ForesterThu Nov 14, 2024 4:07 pm by johnex » Studies in the Zulu War volume VI now availableSat Nov 09, 2024 6:38 pm by Julian Whybra » Colonel Charles Knight PearsonFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH » Grave of Henry SpaldingThu Nov 07, 2024 8:10 pm by 1879graves » John West at KambulaThu Nov 07, 2024 5:25 pm by MKalny15 » Private Frederick Evans 2/24thSun Nov 03, 2024 8:12 pm by Dash » How to find medal entitlement CokerSun Nov 03, 2024 10:51 am by Kev T » Isandlwana Casualty - McCathie/McCarthySat Nov 02, 2024 1:40 pm by Julian Whybra » William Jones CommentFri Nov 01, 2024 6:07 pm by Eddie » Brother of Lt YoungFri Nov 01, 2024 5:13 pm by Eddie » Frederick Marsh - HMS TenedosFri Nov 01, 2024 9:48 am by lydenburg » Mr Spiers KIA iSandlwana ?Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:50 am by Julian Whybra » Isandhlwana unaccounted for casualtiesFri Nov 01, 2024 7:48 am by Julian Whybra » Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:32 pm by Julian Whybra » Absence of Vereker from Snook's BookFri Oct 25, 2024 10:59 pm by Julian Whybra » Another Actor related to the Degacher-Hitchcock familyMon Oct 21, 2024 1:07 pm by Stefaan » No. 799 George Williams and his son-in-law No. 243 Thomas NewmanSat Oct 19, 2024 12:36 pm by Dash » Alphonse de Neuville- Painting the Defence of Rorke's DriftFri Oct 18, 2024 8:34 am by Stefaan » Studies in the Zulu War volumesWed Oct 16, 2024 3:26 pm by Julian Whybra » Martini Henry carbine IC1 markingsMon Oct 14, 2024 10:48 pm by Parkerbloggs » James Conner 1879 claspMon Oct 14, 2024 7:12 pm by Kenny » 80th REG of Foot (Staffords)Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:07 pm by shadeswolf » Frontier Light Horse uniformSun Oct 13, 2024 8:12 pm by Schlaumeier |
December 2024 | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
---|
| | | | | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | | | | | | Calendar |
|
Top posting users this month | |
New topics | » George Champney Palmes - Medal at auctionYesterday at 5:34 pm by Dash » Anderson, A. 2622 2-24thMon Dec 02, 2024 6:01 pm by Dash » Private James Powell - 24th Regiment Fri Nov 29, 2024 10:03 pm by BritNZCan22 » 25B/671 Pte. J. Machin 2/24th Regiment, KIA IsandlwanaThu Nov 28, 2024 9:43 pm by Tim Needham » The Passing of Lady Ellen Baker.Sat Nov 23, 2024 11:35 pm by John Young » Dr. A. Ralph BusbySat Nov 16, 2024 11:36 am by Julian Whybra » Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:49 pm by John Young » Samuel PoppleTue Nov 12, 2024 3:36 pm by STEPHEN JAMES » Colonel Charles Knight PearsonFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH |
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
Fair Use Notice | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
|
| Who had a rifle? | |
|
+4John Young Frank Allewell 90th Bill8183 8 posters | Author | Message |
---|
Bill8183
Posts : 180 Join date : 2015-11-08 Age : 56 Location : Sunderland
| Subject: Who had a rifle? Thu Aug 12, 2021 9:16 pm | |
| Whilst musing through some of the photos I have taken in my research at TNA I looked over the photo of the Establishment of a British Infantry Battalion from the Army Circular 1877. (WO 123/13). Many books have commented on the chaos in the British camp when the Zulu's broke through and Mike Snook has written of his belief that the Pioneer section went to help stem the assault of the left horn. Looking at the detail in the table it would seem not many of of the echelon actually had a firearm of any kind. Would the Battalions carry spare rifles or adhere strictly to TOE? Therefore would HCMDB be mistaken that the Pioneers could do much in the fight? Admittedly it is a full War Establishment for a European [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]war and South Africa had a smaller establishment but the ratios would be the same. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10912 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Who had a rifle Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:30 am | |
| Hi Bill8183 I'm not to sure if the Pioneer Battalion were armed or not , but there may well have been some amount of firearms present in their wagons or similar ? . In HCMDB there's clearly a lack of footnotes in my opinion which validate many of Mike's ideas , let's not forget he's using his own ideas as to what he personally believed may have happened , after all he was a Military man ..Colonel if I'm not mistaken ? . I'm sure there were spare firearms of some amount in the camp , after all you'd expect that spares would need to be carried on a campaign ? , if they were readily accessible and it was known where they were in among all the wagons , it's probably fair to assume that they were accessed at some point . Cheers 90th |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Who had a rifle? Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:19 am | |
| All the odds and sods were called to the front so I have no doubt that the pioneers would have joined in. There are I think 2 statements that mentioned looking for spare guns and one that a gun was being shared. So any spare guns would seem to have been used up quite possibly by the pioneers. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10912 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: who had a rifle Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:31 pm | |
| Hi Frank Yes you'd expect if the Odds and Sods were pressed into service they must've been armed , and I don't mean with picks and shovels etc etc ! 90th |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3319 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: Who had a rifle? Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:57 pm | |
| I appreciate this photograph dates from September 1879, but not a pick or shovel in sight here, although they listed among the Pioneers’ Tools & Appointments.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Pioneers of the 2nd/24th, Pinetown, Natal, a detail from a larger photograph. (John Young Collection.) The Pioneers are equipped with their Felling Axes. JY |
| | | WeekendWarrior
Posts : 272 Join date : 2017-07-21 Location : San Diego, CA
| Subject: Re: Who had a rifle? Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:10 pm | |
| Well, if a Groom had a Martini, why wouldn't a Pioneer? Seems a Tim Rose question. I'm quite curious now. |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3319 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: Who had a rifle? Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:16 pm | |
| Michael,
As far as I recall all photographs I have of Pioneers circa 1879, not one of shows a Pioneer wearing an ammunition pouch. Whereas most of the Other-Ranks are in Musketry Order and wearing a single ammunition pouch. Part of a Pioneer’s belt equipment appears to have been a Billhook, if that were the case in the field, that would be worn in the same position as bayonet frog. I have seen an example of Pioneer of one the Highland Regiments wearing the Billhook in its scabbard, he is wearing a very small pouch of his right side, but it far too small to carry even one packet of ammunition.
I don’t know if Tim can expand on this.
JY |
| | | Bill8183
Posts : 180 Join date : 2015-11-08 Age : 56 Location : Sunderland
| Subject: Re: Who had a rifle? Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:03 pm | |
| Thanks for the reply's gents, whilst it's true that those in camp were brought to the front, I'm sure the quote went "all those who can bear arms" or similar. I wonder how many had an arm to bear. Spare weapons would I'm sure be with the QMaster but would it have been enough to equip all those left in camp?
Mike Snook did right a good book but despite what he says there was a noticeable bias towards his former Regiment of which he was C.O. Having the pioneers defend against the left horn was a little bit of that.
Grooms, cooks, servants were all part of the 16 soldiers assigned to Headquarters as Batmen, as the footnotes state they were fully trained "and armed" soldiers, so no surprise he had a rifle. Williams even stated he and Glyn's cook Pte Hough, with 3 soldier servants of Chelmsford fired away at the Zulus. Bandsman Wilson mentions nothing in his statement about participating in any fighting, Pte Bickley also gives no indication he was armed, also stating ammo was carried to the front by "Bandsmen, wagon drivers and "other unarmed people".
From the totals in the table it does indicate only C/Sgts, Sgts, Cpls, and Ptes (all in the field companies) were ordinarily armed with rifles. With one extra for the Sergeants, who would that be, the Sgt Major? |
| | | timothylrose
Posts : 110 Join date : 2013-09-07
| Subject: Re: Who had a rifle? Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:54 pm | |
| I think on home service the Pioneers section would be expected to carry out musketry training and would be issued with a rifle - the same as members of the RE etc who also carried a rifle on active service - I think a regular battalion had gone past the Napoleonic period of the pioneers fighting with axes - I need to see if we can find a definitive answer as all their other kit axes, picks, shovels etc were pool issue as far I can make out from the Pioneer cart - double shifted at the min so ill see what (if anything) I can dig out over the next few days |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Who had a rifle? Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:51 am | |
| Maybe this will help in keeping the waters murky.
Chards report of the 6th February 1879. he reports that his men were sent to iSandlwana ..."with arms and field kit complete." So Engineers had weapons why not the pioneers? |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3319 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: Who had a rifle? Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:16 am | |
| Frank,
What is interesting if you look at The War Establishment of a Field Company, 1877. There were 165 dismounted N.C.O.’s and other-ranks in a full strength R.E. Field Company. However, the number of Martini-Henry rifles for that number was only 152, which might account for Chard make that statement.
There is an interesting photograph of ‘D’ Company, 1st Battalion, 13th Light Infantry in the field and under arms. The photograph appears in various books, notably in Barthorp’s The Zulu War - A Pictorial History on page 150. Look carefully at the Pioneer Sergeant standing on the left of the photograph. He wears no ammunition pouches on his waist belt and he is armed with an axe.
JY
Last edited by John Young on Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : 130 amended to 150 JY) |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Who had a rifle? Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:38 am | |
| John is that 'C' Company? |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3319 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: Who had a rifle? Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:18 pm | |
| Frank,
The problem with typing without my specs on it should read Page 150, rather than 130 and definitely ‘D’ Company in my first edition. Source of the photograph listed as the Africana Museum, Johannesburg.
JY |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Who had a rifle? Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:11 pm | |
| Interesting, in my copy page 130 is C Company with as you say a Pioneer Sgnt standing with an axe and no belt or pouches. Page 150 shows D Company with Pioneer Sgnt standing with some form of handle (axe?) in his right hand and under the miscroscope what appears to be a belt with pouches. Mine is a reprint by the way, 1991.
|
| | | Herbie
Posts : 118 Join date : 2017-11-16 Age : 59 Location : Epsom, Surrey
| Subject: Re: Who had a rifle? Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:20 pm | |
| There’s a well known photo of the 91st Highlanders in column of companies (on the March?) with several pioneers to the fore, all armed with rifles. I wonder if in some of the more posed static battalion photos the pioneers just have their axes only and have left their rifles elsewhere? Of course it’s possible if they weren’t officially scaled for rifles that carrying them (or not) might vary from regiment to regiment and also on availability due to under strength rifle companies etc. Phil |
| | | gardner1879
Posts : 3463 Join date : 2021-01-04
| Subject: Re: Who had a rifle? Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:49 pm | |
| Interesting how the format is different Frank. My 1980 H/B first edition has C company on page 117 and the famous Alphonse de Neuville, Melvill and Coghill paintiing on page 130. D compay is still on page 150. Kate |
| | | | Who had a rifle? | |
|
Similar topics | |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |