WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Zulu Film Quote Lieutenant Bromhead :If 1200 men couldn't hold a defensive position this morning, what chance have we with 100?
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?
Who had a rifle? EmptyToday at 7:29 pm by John Young

» Sgt Evan Jones, Rorke's Drift Defender
Who had a rifle? EmptyToday at 4:46 pm by Tim Needham

» Bargoed surviver
Who had a rifle? EmptyFri Aug 05, 2022 8:14 pm by Eddie

» Pte E Stephens B Coy
Who had a rifle? EmptyFri Aug 05, 2022 8:08 pm by Eddie

» Charles Pope Royal Marine HMS Himalaya?
Who had a rifle? EmptyFri Aug 05, 2022 6:24 pm by gardner1879

» Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift
Who had a rifle? EmptyThu Aug 04, 2022 10:29 pm by Julian Whybra

» Things I need to know about....
Who had a rifle? EmptyThu Aug 04, 2022 5:30 pm by Tellgryn

» Hero at Court
Who had a rifle? EmptyThu Aug 04, 2022 12:58 pm by Eddie

» Adolf Friedrich Schiel
Who had a rifle? EmptyWed Aug 03, 2022 9:18 pm by Eddie

» DRIFT Hero sent for trial
Who had a rifle? EmptyWed Aug 03, 2022 7:17 pm by Eddie

» John Byrne VC Crimean war 1854
Who had a rifle? EmptyWed Aug 03, 2022 6:54 pm by Eddie

» Proof crime don't pay
Who had a rifle? EmptyWed Aug 03, 2022 6:44 pm by Eddie

» Miss Stenhouse
Who had a rifle? EmptyTue Aug 02, 2022 9:46 pm by Eddie

» 2/4th Foot at Hlobane/Kambula
Who had a rifle? EmptyMon Aug 01, 2022 10:35 pm by John Young

» St Woolas Cemetery Newport
Who had a rifle? EmptyMon Aug 01, 2022 8:19 pm by Eddie

» Sergeant major John Cox
Who had a rifle? EmptyMon Aug 01, 2022 7:42 pm by Eddie

» Trooper W M Wright NMP? Private 425 John Coates 3/60 Regiment
Who had a rifle? EmptyMon Aug 01, 2022 5:00 pm by Julian Whybra

» Photograph of 24th Regiment Officers in 1873
Who had a rifle? EmptyMon Aug 01, 2022 3:16 pm by Julian Whybra

» Mr Buckley Naval Brigade A sad story waiting for his son
Who had a rifle? EmptyMon Aug 01, 2022 2:05 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» Yet another Hill of the Sphinx thread
Who had a rifle? EmptySun Jul 31, 2022 10:47 pm by Julian Whybra

» Corporal 567 W Newbury and private 993 J Highman 99th Regiment
Who had a rifle? EmptySun Jul 31, 2022 3:00 pm by gardner1879

» T Herbert Naval Brigade?
Who had a rifle? EmptySun Jul 31, 2022 1:46 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» Colour Sergeant 1936 William Ledsham 2/4th Regiment
Who had a rifle? EmptySun Jul 31, 2022 1:33 pm by gardner1879

» Private 29B/1892 Joe Robinson 58th Regiment and his recollections
Who had a rifle? EmptySun Jul 31, 2022 1:15 pm by gardner1879

» Private 1460 James O Gorman 2/24th Regiment
Who had a rifle? EmptySun Jul 31, 2022 12:35 pm by gardner1879

» For God, Queen and Colony. Terry Sole
Who had a rifle? EmptySun Jul 31, 2022 11:21 am by Tellgryn

» William Hiley
Who had a rifle? EmptySun Jul 31, 2022 7:54 am by gardner1879

» Emily Phillips who dressed Cetshwayo's wives
Who had a rifle? EmptySun Jul 31, 2022 7:39 am by gardner1879

» Private 2145 William Kennedy 1/24th Regiment
Who had a rifle? EmptySun Jul 31, 2022 7:35 am by gardner1879

» Edward Henry Poole SA adventurer
Who had a rifle? EmptySun Jul 31, 2022 7:21 am by gardner1879

» Mr G Hockaday Naval Brigade? He fed Cetshwayo???
Who had a rifle? EmptySun Jul 31, 2022 7:13 am by gardner1879

» William Hogan Canadas oldest soldier
Who had a rifle? EmptySat Jul 30, 2022 11:46 pm by Kenny

» Private 45/318 William C Field 2/3rd Regiment
Who had a rifle? EmptySat Jul 30, 2022 10:29 pm by gardner1879

» Mr James Gittins 24th Reg 2131 Colour Sergeant
Who had a rifle? EmptySat Jul 30, 2022 10:13 pm by gardner1879

» Private 936 Tom Grainger 80th Regiment
Who had a rifle? EmptySat Jul 30, 2022 10:10 pm by gardner1879

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
The Death of the Prince Imperial Zulu War 1879
Top posters
90th
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
littlehand
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
ADMIN
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
1879graves
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
rusteze
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
John
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Eddie
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
John Young
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
gardner1879
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
Petty Officer Tom
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
1879graves
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
Tellgryn
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
Bill8183
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
Herbie
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
ADMIN
Who had a rifle? Bar_leftWho had a rifle? BarWho had a rifle? Bar_right 
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Adding to the Library
The ammunition question
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
taylor Mounted Woolfryes Police william harford james Natal martini john brown Franklin zulu carbineers horse drift George Prince Isandlwana Durnford spalding Russell payne henry 24th smith
 

 Who had a rifle?

Go down 
+4
John Young
Frank Allewell
90th
Bill8183
8 posters
AuthorMessage
Bill8183




Posts : 122
Join date : 2015-11-08
Age : 53
Location : Sunderland

Who had a rifle? Empty
PostSubject: Who had a rifle?   Who had a rifle? EmptyThu Aug 12, 2021 9:16 pm

Whilst musing through some of the photos I have taken in my research at TNA I looked over the photo of the Establishment of a British Infantry Battalion from the Army Circular 1877. (WO 123/13). Many books have commented on the chaos in the British camp when the Zulu's broke through and Mike Snook has written of his belief that the Pioneer section went to help stem the assault of the left horn.
Looking at the detail in the table it would seem not many of of the echelon actually had a firearm of any kind. Would the Battalions carry spare rifles or adhere strictly to TOE? Therefore would HCMDB be mistaken that the Pioneers could do much in the fight?
Admittedly it is a full War Establishment for a European [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
war and South Africa had a smaller establishment but the ratios would be the same.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10483
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Who had a rifle? Empty
PostSubject: Who had a rifle    Who had a rifle? EmptyFri Aug 13, 2021 4:30 am

Hi Bill8183
I'm not to sure if the Pioneer Battalion were armed or not , but there may well have been some amount of firearms present in their wagons or similar ? . In HCMDB there's clearly a lack of footnotes in my opinion which validate many of Mike's ideas , let's not forget he's using his own ideas as to what he personally believed may have happened , after all he was a Military man ..Colonel if I'm not mistaken ? . I'm sure there were spare firearms of some amount in the camp , after all you'd expect that spares would need to be carried on a campaign ? , if they were readily accessible and it was known where they were in among all the wagons , it's probably fair to assume that they were accessed at some point .
Cheers 90th Salute
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8278
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who had a rifle? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who had a rifle?   Who had a rifle? EmptyFri Aug 13, 2021 7:19 am

All the odds and sods were called to the front so I have no doubt that the pioneers would have joined in. There are I think 2 statements that mentioned looking for spare guns and one that a gun was being shared. So any spare guns would seem to have been used up quite possibly by the pioneers.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10483
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Who had a rifle? Empty
PostSubject: who had a rifle    Who had a rifle? EmptyFri Aug 13, 2021 2:31 pm

Hi Frank
Yes you'd expect if the Odds and Sods were pressed into service they must've been armed , and I don't mean with picks and shovels etc etc ! Very Happy Very Happy
90th Salute
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2501
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 66
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Who had a rifle? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who had a rifle?   Who had a rifle? EmptyFri Aug 13, 2021 6:57 pm

I appreciate this photograph dates from September 1879, but not a pick or shovel in sight here, although they listed among the Pioneers’ Tools & Appointments.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Pioneers of the 2nd/24th, Pinetown, Natal, a detail from a larger photograph.
(John Young Collection.)

The Pioneers are equipped with their Felling Axes.

JY
Back to top Go down
WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior


Posts : 234
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

Who had a rifle? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who had a rifle?   Who had a rifle? EmptyFri Aug 13, 2021 7:10 pm

Well, if a Groom had a Martini, why wouldn't a Pioneer? Seems a Tim Rose question. I'm quite curious now.
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2501
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 66
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Who had a rifle? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who had a rifle?   Who had a rifle? EmptyFri Aug 13, 2021 8:16 pm

Michael,

As far as I recall all photographs I have of Pioneers circa 1879, not one of shows a Pioneer wearing an ammunition pouch. Whereas most of the Other-Ranks are in Musketry Order and wearing a single ammunition pouch. Part of a Pioneer’s belt equipment appears to have been a Billhook, if that were the case in the field, that would be worn in the same position as bayonet frog. I have seen an example of Pioneer of one the Highland Regiments wearing the Billhook in its scabbard, he is wearing a very small pouch of his right side, but it far too small to carry even one packet of ammunition.

I don’t know if Tim can expand on this.

JY
Back to top Go down
Bill8183




Posts : 122
Join date : 2015-11-08
Age : 53
Location : Sunderland

Who had a rifle? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who had a rifle?   Who had a rifle? EmptyFri Aug 13, 2021 11:03 pm

Thanks for the reply's gents, whilst it's true that those in camp were brought to the front, I'm sure the quote went "all those who can bear arms" or similar. I wonder how many had an arm to bear. Spare weapons would I'm sure be with the QMaster but would it have been enough to equip all those left in camp?

Mike Snook did right a good book but despite what he says there was a noticeable bias towards his former Regiment of which he was C.O. Having the pioneers defend against the left horn was a little bit of that.

Grooms, cooks, servants were all part of the 16 soldiers assigned to Headquarters as Batmen, as the footnotes state they were fully trained "and armed" soldiers, so no surprise he had a rifle. Williams even stated he and Glyn's cook Pte Hough, with 3 soldier servants of Chelmsford fired away at the Zulus.
Bandsman Wilson mentions nothing in his statement about participating in any fighting, Pte Bickley also gives no indication he was armed, also stating ammo was carried to the front by "Bandsmen, wagon drivers and "other unarmed people".

From the totals in the table it does indicate only C/Sgts, Sgts, Cpls, and Ptes (all in the field companies) were ordinarily armed with rifles. With one extra for the Sergeants, who would that be, the Sgt Major?
Back to top Go down
timothylrose




Posts : 110
Join date : 2013-09-07

Who had a rifle? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who had a rifle?   Who had a rifle? EmptySat Aug 14, 2021 2:54 pm

I think on home service the Pioneers section would be expected to carry out musketry training and would be issued with a rifle - the same as members of the RE etc who also carried a rifle on active service - I think a regular battalion had gone past the Napoleonic period of the pioneers fighting with axes - I need to see if we can find a definitive answer as all their other kit axes, picks, shovels etc were pool issue as far I can make out from the Pioneer cart - double shifted at the min so ill see what (if anything) I can dig out over the next few days
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8278
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who had a rifle? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who had a rifle?   Who had a rifle? EmptyTue Aug 31, 2021 10:51 am

Maybe this will help in keeping the waters murky.

Chards report of the 6th February 1879. he reports that his men were sent to iSandlwana ..."with arms and field kit complete."
So Engineers had weapons why not the pioneers?
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2501
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 66
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Who had a rifle? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who had a rifle?   Who had a rifle? EmptyTue Aug 31, 2021 11:16 am

Frank,

What is interesting if you look at The War Establishment of a Field Company, 1877.  There were 165 dismounted N.C.O.’s and other-ranks in a full strength R.E. Field Company.  However, the number of Martini-Henry rifles for that number was only 152, which might account for Chard make that statement.

There is an interesting photograph of ‘D’ Company, 1st Battalion, 13th Light Infantry in the field and under arms.  The photograph appears in various books, notably in Barthorp’s The Zulu War - A Pictorial History on page 150.  Look carefully at the Pioneer Sergeant standing on the left of the photograph.  He wears no ammunition pouches on his waist belt and he is armed with an axe.

JY


Last edited by John Young on Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : 130 amended to 150 JY)
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8278
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who had a rifle? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who had a rifle?   Who had a rifle? EmptyTue Aug 31, 2021 11:38 am

John is that 'C' Company?
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2501
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 66
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Who had a rifle? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who had a rifle?   Who had a rifle? EmptyTue Aug 31, 2021 12:18 pm

Frank,

The problem with typing without my specs on it should read Page 150, rather than 130 and definitely ‘D’ Company in my first edition. Source of the photograph listed as the Africana Museum, Johannesburg.

JY
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8278
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who had a rifle? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who had a rifle?   Who had a rifle? EmptyTue Aug 31, 2021 1:11 pm


Interesting, in my copy page 130 is C Company with as you say a Pioneer Sgnt standing with an axe and no belt or pouches.
Page 150 shows D Company with Pioneer Sgnt standing with some form of handle (axe?) in his right hand and under the miscroscope what appears to be a belt with pouches. Mine is a reprint by the way, 1991.
Back to top Go down
Herbie




Posts : 99
Join date : 2017-11-16
Age : 56
Location : Epsom, Surrey

Who had a rifle? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who had a rifle?   Who had a rifle? EmptyThu Sep 02, 2021 11:20 pm

There’s a well known photo of the 91st Highlanders in column of companies (on the March?) with several pioneers to the fore, all armed with rifles. I wonder if in some of the more posed static battalion photos the pioneers just have their axes only and have left their rifles elsewhere? Of course it’s possible if they weren’t officially scaled for rifles that carrying them (or not) might vary from regiment to regiment and also on availability due to under strength rifle companies etc.
Phil
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 1118
Join date : 2021-01-04

Who had a rifle? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who had a rifle?   Who had a rifle? EmptySun Sep 05, 2021 3:49 pm

Interesting how the format is different Frank.
My 1980 H/B first edition has C company on page 117 and the famous Alphonse de Neuville, Melvill and Coghill paintiing on page 130. D compay is still on page 150.
Kate Very Happy
Back to top Go down
 
Who had a rifle?
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» THE MARTINI-HENRY RIFLE. Special interest attached at the present moment to a blue book on the Martini-Henry rifle and ammunition
» RA 5th Brigade rifle?
» Uniforms Of The 3/60th Rifles
» The Martini Henry Rifle
» One in Ten had a Rifle.

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: