WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Lance Corporal Robert Eaton NMP
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyToday at 5:07 pm by ymob

» William De Passey, 17th Lancers.1879.
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyMon Sep 21, 2020 1:20 pm by Frank Allewell

» List of identified bodies at Isandlwana
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyThu Sep 17, 2020 5:30 am by John Young

» Defenders of Rorkes Drift
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyWed Sep 16, 2020 6:47 pm by Digger

» Colour Sgt Anthony Clark Booth, VC.
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyTue Sep 15, 2020 6:47 pm by ADMIN

» Cpl John Lyons
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 7:49 pm by Bill8183

» A Case of Mistaken Identity?
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 11:29 am by John Young

» What happened next
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 10:51 am by Springbok

» Surgeon Espine Charles Ward
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyWed Sep 09, 2020 9:38 am by John Young

» 2nd Lieutenant William Lancelot James, 2nd/4th Regiment.
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyMon Sep 07, 2020 2:41 pm by ADMIN

» Explaining Amabutho in one word??
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyMon Sep 07, 2020 11:49 am by SRB1965

» Non-Combat Casualties - Royal Navy and Royal Marines
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyThu Sep 03, 2020 4:05 pm by Frank Allewell

» Non-Combat Casualties - Royal Artillery
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyWed Sep 02, 2020 8:01 pm by Catiline63

» Colonel William,Egerton Saunders, C.B
MH Rifle or Musket EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:46 pm by ADMIN

» Lieutenant-Colonel David Campbell Williamson.
MH Rifle or Musket EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:32 pm by ADMIN

» Brigade Surgeon E. J. Boulton
MH Rifle or Musket EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:02 pm by ADMIN

» Joseph Walter O’Malley Martin. Assistant Surgeon
MH Rifle or Musket EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:52 pm by ADMIN

» Quarter-Master William London
MH Rifle or Musket EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:32 pm by ADMIN

» Surgeon Major Henry Lamb
MH Rifle or Musket EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:19 pm by ADMIN

» Lieutenant Robert Thomas Graves Lowry
MH Rifle or Musket EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:13 pm by ADMIN

» Sgt. John Philip Archbell NNC
MH Rifle or Musket EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 8:43 pm by ADMIN

» Tpr. John Ross Natal Carbineer
MH Rifle or Musket EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 8:27 pm by ADMIN

» Non-Combat Casualties in Colonial and Native Units
MH Rifle or Musket EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 11:52 am by Julian Whybra

» Victorian HMS SHAH South Africa Zulu Wars Medal William Morrison Royal Navy
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 5:50 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» South African 1879 Zulu War medal to Corp R Starkey 57th Regiment of Foot
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 3:50 pm by 1879graves

» 2/4th Foot at Hlobane/Kambula
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 4:12 am by 90th

» England's Sons 9th edition
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyWed Aug 26, 2020 6:20 pm by Herbie

» Strange tales from Isandlwana
MH Rifle or Musket EmptySun Aug 23, 2020 4:25 pm by SRB1965

» Colour - Sergeant George William Mabin
MH Rifle or Musket EmptySat Aug 22, 2020 5:48 pm by Visitor

» Militaria Sale
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 5:59 pm by Frank Allewell

» Men of the 24th Regiment of Foot - Secunderabad, India 1873
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 12:48 am by 90th

» Malicious website
MH Rifle or Musket EmptySun Aug 16, 2020 9:06 pm by ADMIN

» Rorkes drift Hotel
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyThu Aug 13, 2020 7:00 pm by robert taylor

» Durnford's medical officer
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyThu Aug 06, 2020 11:36 am by SRB1965

» Charles Sparks - any information available?
MH Rifle or Musket EmptyThu Aug 06, 2020 9:23 am by Julian Whybra

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Black as Hell, Thick as Grass
Top posters
90th
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
littlehand
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
ADMIN
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
1879graves
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
rusteze
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
John
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
John Young
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
De Passey
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
90th
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
ADMIN
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
1879graves
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
Kenny
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
SRB1965
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
Digger
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
Catiline63
MH Rifle or Musket Bar_leftMH Rifle or Musket BarMH Rifle or Musket Bar_right 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Adding to the Library
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
Isandlwana gardner Woolfryes martini Durnford George Russell Franklin zulu Mounted drift spalding 24th melvill taylor Police james Natal john henry payne horse william Prince smith harford

 

 MH Rifle or Musket

Go down 
AuthorMessage
John

John

Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 58
Location : UK

MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: MH Rifle or Musket   MH Rifle or Musket EmptyTue May 20, 2014 7:29 pm

Is this chap holding a MH or Musket

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket   MH Rifle or Musket EmptyTue May 20, 2014 7:49 pm

from Cetshwayo's coronation 1873, tower musket, flintlock.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket   MH Rifle or Musket EmptyTue May 20, 2014 8:50 pm

Is it? looks like a MH. Isn't that a leaver just behind the trigger.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket   MH Rifle or Musket EmptyTue May 20, 2014 9:12 pm

issued in june 1871, mark 1. M-H, not sure how that guy got
a state of the art weapon of mass destruction. and it looks
like an old brass trigger guard to me.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket   MH Rifle or Musket EmptyTue May 20, 2014 9:18 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
from Cetshwayo's coronation 1873, tower musket, flintlock.

Les. Do we know where that photo originated from, and how the date of the photo was authenticated.
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young

Posts : 2130
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket   MH Rifle or Musket EmptyTue May 20, 2014 9:28 pm

Littlehand,

No that is a muzzleloader, rather than a breech-loader.  What you perceive to be a lever is a plate.

Here's the full photograph:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Prince Dabulamanzi kaMpande and the retainers, 1873.
John Young Collection

John Y.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket   MH Rifle or Musket EmptyTue May 20, 2014 9:28 pm

Thanks John was that taken at Cetshwayo's coronation ?
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young

Posts : 2130
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket   MH Rifle or Musket EmptyTue May 20, 2014 9:30 pm

Littlehand,

At the British version - yes.

John Y.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket   MH Rifle or Musket EmptyTue May 20, 2014 9:37 pm

Hiya LH, without cracking the books, i was recalling
from memory, Prince Dablumanzi and his attendants
taken at the coronation of Cetshwayo sept ist 1873.
there are more knowledgeable people on here than me,
so your and Johns question will be definitively answered.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket   MH Rifle or Musket EmptyTue May 20, 2014 9:38 pm

Thanks JY, british version indeed.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket   MH Rifle or Musket EmptyTue May 20, 2014 10:24 pm

just thinking the prince'd firearm looks
interesting!.
Back to top Go down
barry

barry

Posts : 921
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: Prince dabulamanziand his entourage   MH Rifle or Musket EmptyWed May 21, 2014 6:18 am

Hi JohnY,
Thanks for a nice picture.
The weapons I see in the hand of the prince and his guards appearing  either side of him are 12gg db  shotguns each.  All  three with external hammers and  forward barrel studs for sling swivels but not used, maker as yet unidentified , but probably Brit.
The other three  in the pic have quite antiquated ball and powder muzzle loading weapons (muskets), probably of .44 cal, and  of very dubious efficiency over anything other than 10's of meters.
It is not generally known that in the latter part of the 1800's Zululand was  a  thriving target market for  European arms dealers  smuggling in and selling dated weapons to the Zulus, many of  which were used at Isandlwana and RD.
This trade was one way of getting rid of  burgeoning European arsenals needing to make space for new technology . It was recorded too that some of the  anti-British missionaries in Zululand were acting as a conduit in this illegal trade.
This contrabrand was shipped in and brought ashore  covertly in longboats  through the tidal estuary at St Lucia, where , in the earlier years, there were no controls.

regards

barry
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young

Posts : 2130
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket   MH Rifle or Musket EmptyWed May 21, 2014 9:13 pm

Barry,

You are 50% correct: one barrel is 12 bore, the other is .450" rifled Henry barrel.  In my opinion if that barrel goes bang one might be hard-pushed to tell it apart from a Martini-Henry.  Which might account for the conclusion of some of the defenders that the Zulu had Martini-Henrys.

It is what was known as a "Cape Gun" here's an advert' for one from 1877:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Bland's Cape Gun.
John Young Collection.

The lad seated in the European jacket is holding a Royal Navy Pattern Brunswick rifle, the giveaway on that is the loop on the trigger-guard.  The calibre was .79" sighted up to 300 yards (274 metres).

The other two appear to be armed with the 1838 rifled musket which was .753" in calibre.  Fixed sights - aim and hope!

John Y.
Back to top Go down
6pdr

6pdr

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket   MH Rifle or Musket EmptyWed May 21, 2014 11:03 pm

barry wrote:

It is not generally known that in the latter part of the 1800's Zululand was  a  thriving target market for  European arms dealers  smuggling in and selling dated weapons to the Zulus, many of  which were used at Isandlwana and RD.

I think this is generally known by anybody who has ever heard of John Dunn (not that he was the only gunrunner but he's certainly not an obscure person during this period.)

One of the most frequent comments I see on this topic is that many muskets bore the Tower mark.
Back to top Go down
barry

barry

Posts : 921
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: Dabulamanzi and his weapons   MH Rifle or Musket EmptyThu May 22, 2014 4:02 am

Hi JohnY,
Thanks for the add on the Cape Gun.
Indeed, if the weapons x 3 were side-by-side combos, one barrel with a 557/ .450 inch barrel , firing the Government .450  boxer cartridge, and the other, the right barrel a 12gg tube ,  I too doubt whether one could tell the difference between the ..450 being fired, or an Mh.  However, if may be that those weapons were not the run-of-the-mill, in Zulu hands.
I still feel that the chances are high that a number of Mh's were in being used by the enemy at RD.
Out of interest I have saved the picture for further analysis as I believe one of the musket calibres could be  smaller than quoted.

regards

barry


Last edited by barry on Fri May 23, 2014 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw

Posts : 552
Join date : 2009-10-14
Location : Loughborough

MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket   MH Rifle or Musket EmptyThu May 22, 2014 8:45 am

Its unlikely that any of these would chamber Government boxer cartridges in 1873 as the 577/450 had not been issued officially to the troops yet, and that ammunition which would have been would be early Mk1 cartridge, which was extensively trialled but discontinued in favour of the MKII, the MkIII cartridge was not issued until October 1873.

Even in the early-mid 1870's the Martini was still a rare animal, official issue under general order to the army was October 1874, and even as late as October 1875, troops embarking for India were exchanging rifles as they embarked to the continent. (I have a copy of the official document). So was the calibre in large scale supply, even before tensions began to rise?, unlikely.

I posted a link to Brian Knapps excellent article on the issue of the Swinburn rifle and Carbine a while back to the Natal irregulars, but even still by late 1878 the Snider, the Calisher and the Monkey tail were outnumbering service calibre weapons 5:1.

As Barry mentioned the "Cape Guns" were very popular, but likely to be in .450 boxer Henry long cartridge pic on my webpage [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] for the trials MH, or .577 snider

John not sure about the Navy Brunswick, the barrel is exposed and the rod is held in rod tubes, need my magnifying glass, only 100 were made at Enfield, if so a rare animal.

Back to top Go down
http://www.martinihenry.org
barry

barry

Posts : 921
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: The Cape Gun   MH Rifle or Musket EmptyFri May 23, 2014 3:24 pm

Hi Neil,
Some checking reveals that the l/h rifled barrel of this weapon was indeed chambered for  577/.450 and seemed to have been available in 1879. It was intended as a sporting gun for use in Africa, so not too many of them would have been around.
However ,there were European manufactures  making their own almost identical versions of this English gun made by Thomas Bland, who had his works in London.
Looking  at some detailed pictures of the leaf sighting arrangements I would go so far as to say that achieving sub caliber groupings at 100m, so as to achieve accurate tight  body  shots at 300m, as at Rd, would not have been possible as this was a big game weapon for use at very short ranges  and  ideal for shooting elephants in the head at 50m.

regards

barry
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young

Posts : 2130
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket   MH Rifle or Musket EmptySat May 24, 2014 8:40 pm

Neil,

I got the identification of the Brunswick decades ago for a protégé of Fred Myatt, I wasn't going to question someone who had studied under him.

John Y.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




MH Rifle or Musket Empty
PostSubject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket   MH Rifle or Musket Empty

Back to top Go down
 
MH Rifle or Musket
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: