WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu: Pvt. Cole: Why is it us? Why us? Colour Sergeant Bourne: Because we're here, lad. Nobody else. Just us.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Hassard Fairfax Charles.
First to cross EmptyYesterday at 12:10 pm by rai

» Captain/ Sub Assistant Commissary Joseph Stead Army Commissariat Department
First to cross EmptyYesterday at 11:49 am by rai

» Captain Archibald Graham Wavell 9th Regiment
First to cross EmptyYesterday at 9:42 am by rai

» Duke of Cornwall’s Light Infantry Dinner, pre-October 1927
First to cross EmptyYesterday at 9:00 am by Julian Whybra

» Replica Medals
First to cross EmptyYesterday at 8:54 am by Julian Whybra

» Private 50B/371 Henry Ushen / Usher 57th Regiment
First to cross EmptyYesterday at 8:43 am by rai

» Surruier Captain RE?
First to cross EmptyYesterday at 2:08 am by Eddie

» Alfred Saxty
First to cross EmptyYesterday at 1:25 am by 90th

» Private 3235 W J Blackmore 3/60th Regiment
First to cross EmptyFri Mar 31, 2023 11:20 am by rai

» Commander Edward Duffett Naval Brigade
First to cross EmptyThu Mar 30, 2023 11:42 am by rai

» Lance Corporal 13747 John Watson 30th Company Royal Engineers
First to cross EmptyThu Mar 30, 2023 10:46 am by rai

» Sapper 13977 Henry Joseph Higgs 5th Company Royal Engineers
First to cross EmptyWed Mar 29, 2023 11:21 am by rai

» Bugler 116 Sam Styles 90th Regiment
First to cross EmptyWed Mar 29, 2023 10:33 am by rai

» Private 2074 William Barker, 1st King's Dragoon Guards
First to cross EmptyTue Mar 28, 2023 11:59 am by rai

» Private 1246 Ernest? Mitchell 2/4th Regiment
First to cross EmptyTue Mar 28, 2023 11:32 am by rai

» Corporal 25B/1139 Jonathan Smart 2/24th
First to cross EmptyTue Mar 28, 2023 10:23 am by rai

» Private 1734 Edwin Charles Clarke 57th Regiment
First to cross EmptyTue Mar 28, 2023 9:51 am by rai

» Private 65B/2370 Henry Francis Jarvis 94th Regiment Bronkhorst Spruit survivor
First to cross EmptyTue Mar 28, 2023 9:30 am by rai

» Private 45/517 Francis Kerslake / Kersdake 2/3rd Regiment
First to cross EmptyMon Mar 27, 2023 12:10 pm by rai

» Private 11/2903 George Henry Squibb 2/4th Regiment
First to cross EmptyMon Mar 27, 2023 11:44 am by rai

» Sapper 13520 Charles Benford 30th Company Royal Engineers
First to cross EmptyMon Mar 27, 2023 10:30 am by rai

» Corporal 45/1026 John Henry Jacobs 2/3rd Regiment
First to cross EmptyMon Mar 27, 2023 9:53 am by rai

» Corporal Albert Smart Natal Mounted Police
First to cross EmptyMon Mar 27, 2023 9:44 am by rai

» James Cumberland
First to cross EmptyMon Mar 27, 2023 7:41 am by rai

» Captain H M Saunders 58th Regiment
First to cross EmptySun Mar 26, 2023 12:22 pm by John Young

» Private 115 Richard Suggett / Suggell 2/21st Regiment
First to cross EmptySun Mar 26, 2023 10:35 am by rai

» Private 2137 Thomas Edwards 17th Lancers , Valentine Baker, Corporal 1558 Thomas Bailey 17th Lancers
First to cross EmptySun Mar 26, 2023 10:28 am by rai

» Thomas Edwards
First to cross EmptySun Mar 26, 2023 9:43 am by rai

» Captain Alfred Godwin Godwin-Austen, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot
First to cross EmptySun Mar 26, 2023 9:03 am by rai

» Major-General CHERRY-GARRARD,
First to cross EmptySat Mar 25, 2023 11:18 am by ADMIN

» Sergeant 2195 Walter C Low / Lott 17th Lancers
First to cross EmptySat Mar 25, 2023 10:40 am by rai

» Private 1934 J Brewer and Private 1919 J Bathe 99th Regiment
First to cross EmptySat Mar 25, 2023 9:39 am by rai

» Private 1118 William Laws, 90th Regiment
First to cross EmptySat Mar 25, 2023 9:22 am by rai

» Time keeping at isandlwana
First to cross EmptySat Mar 25, 2023 9:20 am by Frank Allewell

» Lieutenant R T H Law 77th (East Middlesex) Regiment
First to cross EmptySat Mar 25, 2023 8:25 am by rai

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
181x240
Top posters
90th
First to cross Bar_leftFirst to cross BarFirst to cross Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
First to cross Bar_leftFirst to cross BarFirst to cross Bar_right 
littlehand
First to cross Bar_leftFirst to cross BarFirst to cross Bar_right 
ADMIN
First to cross Bar_leftFirst to cross BarFirst to cross Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
First to cross Bar_leftFirst to cross BarFirst to cross Bar_right 
1879graves
First to cross Bar_leftFirst to cross BarFirst to cross Bar_right 
gardner1879
First to cross Bar_leftFirst to cross BarFirst to cross Bar_right 
John Young
First to cross Bar_leftFirst to cross BarFirst to cross Bar_right 
rusteze
First to cross Bar_leftFirst to cross BarFirst to cross Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
First to cross Bar_leftFirst to cross BarFirst to cross Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
rai
First to cross Bar_leftFirst to cross BarFirst to cross Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
First to cross Bar_leftFirst to cross BarFirst to cross Bar_right 
90th
First to cross Bar_leftFirst to cross BarFirst to cross Bar_right 
Eddie
First to cross Bar_leftFirst to cross BarFirst to cross Bar_right 
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Adding to the Library
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
carbineers horse Natal drift martini Mounted smith Jones George harford henry Roll Police Franklin Russell 24th anstey williams Prince Isandlwana Harry john james brown 2022 taylor
 

 First to cross

Go down 
+3
gardner1879
Frank Allewell
lfmcgee4
7 posters
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
lfmcgee4




Posts : 28
Join date : 2022-01-11
Location : Pittsburgh, PA USA

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 5:06 am

Forgive me if this has been addressed before, but what was the order of crossing the Buffalo River with Chelmsford, with the first crossing at the beginning of the War?
Lee
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 5:25 am

Lee my understanding is the first across was Norris Newman. At least that was his claim. I suspect he has pretty well surrounded by well armed mounted colonials.
Back to top Go down
lfmcgee4




Posts : 28
Join date : 2022-01-11
Location : Pittsburgh, PA USA

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 5:32 am

Who would have established the bridge head, infantry or would the IMA have been sent across to establish a screen?  That’s kind of what I’m wondering.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 5:49 am

I reckon as Noggs was with them it would have been a Colonial force.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 5:52 am

The colonials were probably the more accomplished horsemen and used to fording rivers so would I assume have been upfront.
Back to top Go down
lfmcgee4




Posts : 28
Join date : 2022-01-11
Location : Pittsburgh, PA USA

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 5:54 am

Thank you Frank.  I’m primarily interested in the IMA but the generic “17th lancers” portrayed in Zulu Dawn and Zulu continue to muddy the issue for me.
Back to top Go down
lfmcgee4




Posts : 28
Join date : 2022-01-11
Location : Pittsburgh, PA USA

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 6:05 am

Perhaps this sounds naive but I still just don’t understand why a regular British cavalry force wasn’t deployed at the outset. Would it have made a difference at Islandwana vs the IMA?
Back to top Go down
lfmcgee4




Posts : 28
Join date : 2022-01-11
Location : Pittsburgh, PA USA

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 6:18 am

I’m a J. C. Russell apologist, so, with that in mind, a force of IMA, out with Chelmsford or in camp = coward and failure of Russell vs. regular 17 th under Drury- Lowe at Ulindi = hero. Why the blame on an individual vs a overall strategy?
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 3090
Join date : 2021-01-04

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 8:06 am

Welcome Lee
There are many on the forum who are in agreement with you about the unfair treatment of Lieutenant Colonel John Cecil Russell 12th Lancers.
He must have had some merit as a commander of mounted troops to have 'scored quite a coup' with the IMI but was badly shaken after the 22nd and when the spotlight of blame was searching for culprits he,  perhaps because of his manner or personality, was lit up and never shook off the stigma.

Another cavalry officer who received the same treatment Was Captain Alan Colstoun Gardner 14th Hussars  who like yourself also questioned the lack of cavalry and I have to agree with him that had there been "a regiment or even two squadrons of cavalry, the disaster at iSandlwana would not have occurred"

If you are interested in cavalry officers in the AZW and the conflict between officers you may like to read (shameless plug here folks) 'Rifle and Spear with the Zulu. The Life of Lt. Col. Alan Colstoun Gardner'
Alan was appointed Russell's staff officer before he moved up to No4 column and there are letters and statements in there about him including a very scathing one written by Redvers Buller.
Kate
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 8:09 am

Hi Lee
Kate could advise of his exact phrase, but Alan Gardner 10the Hussars commented that he wass of the opinion that a sqadron of Hussars would have cleared the field. So quite possibly a full squadron of IMA, armed with cold steel could have had a decisive impact on the earlier zulu attacks, in particular in the east.
In terms of first men over the Buffalo, A company of colonials scouting would be, in my humble opinion, of a lot more benefit than a regular force more regularly employed as a massed unit.
Harford also crossed early further upstream with his company of 2/3rd NNC. On the ponts the 1/24th lead the way.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
lfmcgee4




Posts : 28
Join date : 2022-01-11
Location : Pittsburgh, PA USA

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 8:10 am

Thanks Kate. I’ll check that out.
Lee
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2935
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 67
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 8:13 am

Am I missing something here, who the Hell are the IMA that at least two of you are mentioning?

JY
Back to top Go down
lfmcgee4




Posts : 28
Join date : 2022-01-11
Location : Pittsburgh, PA USA

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 8:15 am

Imperial Mounted Infantry
Lee
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2935
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 67
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 8:35 am

Lee,

So where does the IMA come from in that?

Apart from one official reference and the Cape newspapers, the two squadrons of Mounted Infantry were not known as the “Imperial Mounted Infantry” in the field or in most contemporary reporting.

They were either referred to as No. 1 Squadron, Mounted Infantry, or 1st Squadron, Mounted Infantry, and likewise for No. 2 Squadron.

Could someone can please show me the use of the phrase I.M.I. anywhere in the despatches of the campaign? Because I haven’t seen it.

Rant over.

JY
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 3090
Join date : 2021-01-04

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 8:59 am

I suppose I refer to them as that John because the two men who formed the unit, Major Percy Harry Stanley Barrow and Lieutenant Colonal John Cecil Russell called them that. (which I am assuming is the official reference you refer to in your post)

Letter from Barrow to Sir Archibald Pietermaritzburg September 1878
"Russell is forming a similar squadron in the Transvaal. We are eventually to join and form a corps to be called "Imperial Mounted Infantry", adding a squadron or two of volunteers and probably some natives"

Is there an official reference somewhere John that I can look up that gives a definitive right or wrong answer as to their offical title?
Kate
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2935
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 67
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 9:38 am

Kate,

Having searched The London Gazette using the exact phrase “Imperial Mounted Infantry” and over a period October 1878 through to December 1879 it appears twice in 21st February 1879, and once in 21st March 1879.

I then searched it again this time removing the word “Imperial” which threw up an additional fifty-five references relating to the campaign.

Then I add the word “Squadron” in front of Mounted Infantry and that in turn gave up seven results relating to the campaign.

So in that publication alone the “Imperial Mounted Infantry” are well and truly outnumbered.

I would say the The Narrative of Field Operations… is the official publication on the subject, or the papers released by Bellairs from Pietermaritzburg, they will be my next port-of-calls.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

JY
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 3090
Join date : 2021-01-04

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 9:42 am

Thanks John. Always appreciated.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 10:23 am

Mea Culpa John, copied IMA straight over from Lee's post without thinking of your blood pressure Sad

I have this in my notes: In 1878, Carrington was ordered to raise and train 300 MI, known as the 1st and 2nd Squadrons, Imperial Mounted Infantry."

Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 10:26 am

Pretty sure this was based on his experience of the Mounted Infantry he raised in the Eastern Cape
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2935
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 67
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 2:20 pm

Frank,

You had me reaching for my medication for sure.

I know the expression “Imperial Mounted Infantry” was certainly used in the Cape press, I assume it was to differentiate between the Cape permanent forces and the regular British forces. As we know Carrington had commanded two units of mounted infantry, one formed from regular Army personnel, the other formed by colonial volunteers, and confusingly enough both were initially styled “Carrington’s Horse”.  The latter would in time become the Frontier Light Horse.  It may well have been Carrington who coined the expression, “Imperial Mounted Infantry” himself.  

Just my supposition, nothing more.

Returning to Lee’s original question as to who crossed the Mzinyathi River first.  Chelmsford records that Colonel Glyn’s regular infantry crossed first by means of the pont, a barrel raft and a small boat.  When they did this the infantry carried the weapons of the mounted troops across with them.  Which given Private Price’s - of 1st Squadron, Mounted infantry - misfortune was obviously a wise move.

I’m fairly certain that I read that 24th deployed in skirmish order on the Zulu bank to facilitate the safe crossing.  Chelmsford and the bulk of the mounted troops, by then rearmed, rode off for the rendezvous with Wood & Buller.

JY
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10737
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: First to cross    First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 2:28 pm

Hi JY / Frank
Yes I'm certain it was the Imperial troops who first crossed by the Pont etc , as JY mentioned they were drawn out in a screen to cover the crossing , the RA was drawn up on the Natal Bank to also cover the crossing .
90th Salute
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2935
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 67
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 2:38 pm

90th,

You have hit the Bunnings nail on the head - quite right.

JY
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 3:02 pm

And Noggs would have been with who?
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10737
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: first to cross    First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 3:21 pm

Noggs went across with the 3rd NNC and Capt Krohn .
90th
Back to top Go down
lfmcgee4




Posts : 28
Join date : 2022-01-11
Location : Pittsburgh, PA USA

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 3:23 pm

Thanks all for the replies.

And I’m happy to call the mounted infantry whatever they were.

I really appreciate the knowledge and generosity on the forum.

Lee
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 3:40 pm

So as Noggs bragged as being first across would one assume then that there were others across before the Companies, as in Captain Krohn and the 1/3rd NNC ? As Captain Hayes was 1/3rd NNC and was there to rescue a MI does it not follow that the MI were crossing with the !/3rd NNC?
Noggs is pretty clear when he say: " I was the first man in Zululand after war was declared, and the troops moved over."
Just my reasoning for the Colonials being across before the Imperial Companies.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 3090
Join date : 2021-01-04

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 3:41 pm

"At daybreak on the 11th January the mounted men and natives began to cross by the ford, while the British infantry were taken over by ponts which had been prepared. The operation was covered by Harness's battery which occupied a knoll overlooking the points of passage but no opposition was attempted, and by 6.30am the whole of the troops were on the left bank. The mounted men were sent out in front and during the day wagons, stores and camp equipage were ferried across, and a camp was formed on the Zulou side of the Buffalo, the two Battalions of the 24th in the centre, with a Battalion of Native Contingemt on each flank"
Narrative of Field Operations page 26

This would suggest they crossed simultaneously and with horse being quicker than ponts I would say they got there first.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10737
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: First to cross    First to cross EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 4:05 pm

Hi Kate
Noggs states ...once the NNC and the 24th Companies had crossed the river , they advanced a few hundred yards and then halted until the Fog lifted , after a short time the cavalry division came through our ranks with LC and the staff in the centre , then proceeded at a smart trot some way inland to meet Wood as arranged .
90th
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyWed Sep 21, 2022 8:52 am

JY
Maybe this will assist.
The first Mounted detachment formed by Carrington was from the 47 men of the 1/24th and 36 from the Buffs.
Originally formed as Carringtons Horse they were renamed in the Transvaal as the Transvaal Mounted Infantry.
After escorting Shepstone to see Cetshwayo, they returned to Pretoria. Carrington then left for King Williams Town and organised The Frontier Light Horse. So they were a seperate entity rather than a development from the original.
The first trace of the Imperial Mounted Infantry naming I can locate dates back to the Sekhukhuneland campaign when the TMI 1st Squadron command was awarded by Thesiger to Major Russell.

Hope that helps.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2935
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 67
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyWed Sep 21, 2022 9:48 am

Frank,

You jogged something with me, so I consulted The Transvaal Under The Queen by the then Lieutenant-Colonel Nathaniel Newnham-Davis.

I wish I hadn’t!

This is from Chapter V - STANDERTON

…At last the ‘route’ came.  One half of the squadron - for by now we had been officially re-christened the 1st Squadron Imperial Mounted Infantry, and had unofficially nicknamed ‘the Bashibazooks’ - was to go north-east to keep an eye on the rebel chief Secocoeni, and Walsh went with this.  I was to take the other troop to Standerton, a little town on the Vaal River, and was to March with two companies of the 13th, who were to for. the permanent garrison.  Browne had ridden off to the Free State to buy some horses.  Carrington had left us to raise another Carrington’s Horse in a different part of South Africa.

Damn there’s blinking phrase hidden amongst that paragraph, and I still don’t like it!

The other Carrington’s Horse mentioned by Newnham-Davis had gone by the name “Pulleine’s Rangers” according to Streatfeild before they eventually became styled the Frontier Light Horse.

JY
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 3090
Join date : 2021-01-04

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyWed Sep 21, 2022 9:56 am

HUZZAH !!
We have an answer at last. 'Imperial Mounted Infantry' it is.
Thats what I like about the forum, the collective knowledge coming together, and using all their resources to answer difficult questions.
Well done all Salute Salute
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyWed Sep 21, 2022 9:58 am

This from "Zulu Victory" Ron and Peter.
pp77

The cavalry were the first to cross but before entering the river they deposited their carbines and haversacks on the pontoon to give their weapons and kit a dry crossing

Cheers

Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10737
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: First to cross    First to cross EmptyWed Sep 21, 2022 10:26 pm

Hi Frank
I see nothing's changed , different sources state differing accounts ! . Norris Newman ' In Zululand With The British Throughout The War Of 1879 ' Pge 35 '' The entire cavalry brigade , under Lt-Col Russell , deposited their arms , &e , on the pontoons , and then rode back to follow the 1/3rd NNC at the Drift . The 1/24th Regiment under Capt Degacher , crossed at one of the Ponts , and the 2/24th , under Colonel Degacher , CB ., at the other ; ''
90th
Back to top Go down
WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior


Posts : 251
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyThu Sep 22, 2022 5:06 am

Just the sort of minutaie I love. Let me dig into this.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyThu Sep 22, 2022 8:04 am

Dead right Gary. Salute
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2935
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 67
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyThu Sep 22, 2022 8:42 am

From the Parliamentary Blue Book, 2242, February 1879 Affairs of South Africa.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
(John Young Collection)

I appreciate it reads Tugela, rather than Buffalo, but here’s the plan for the crossing.

JY
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 3090
Join date : 2021-01-04

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyThu Sep 22, 2022 9:27 am

There are several interesting points to be picked out of some of the accounts above.

How deep was the river at the drift if they were worried about their weapons getting wet?

If their weapons were put on the pontoon and then they went across first they wouldn't be much use on the other side if attacked unless there was a screening force already there to cover them.

Great map JY Salute
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyThu Sep 22, 2022 9:57 am

Harford spoke of his men up to their necks.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyThu Sep 22, 2022 10:00 am

Wouldnt worry them Kate, I remember that wonderful British Documentary of a Knight that fought on after his legs and arms were chopped of, and still threw insults after the departing foe. Stoic is the word, or 'abanesibindi ebunzimeni' as the locals would say.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyThu Sep 22, 2022 10:11 am

Unashamedly filched from 'the other crowd'!
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Very definite proof that the horses in the background won by a short head. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 3090
Join date : 2021-01-04

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyThu Sep 22, 2022 10:23 am

Just taking a punt at another idea.
Wouldn't a team of engineers, sappers and possibly NNC laborours have gone across first to secure the landing area and rope/mooring posts for the ponts
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyThu Sep 22, 2022 10:41 am

Yes without doubt but Noggs claim was first man across in War Time. Wasnt there also a contingent rode down from Woods column before the 11th?
Kate arent Engineers and Sapers the same thing?
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2935
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 67
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyThu Sep 22, 2022 10:52 am

Frank,

Who or what are the other crowd?

What is interesting in that sketch are all the elements of the crossing are shown: the pont, the barrel raft and the small boat.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
A contemporary hand-tinted view of Rorke’s Drift, photographed later in 1879.
(John Young Collection)

The pont and small boat remained, but the barrel raft was damaged in a storm, hence the barrels scattered on the Natal bank.

This photograph holds some happy memories for me, as it was used to orientate where the current bridge was to built by the O.T.C. of Southampton University.  All discussed with a certain late, lamented, Royal Engineers Officer over some early lunches at Rules in Maiden Lane.

JY
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyThu Sep 22, 2022 1:12 pm

Unless Im mistaken the bridge is around 50 metre downriver, more or less on the start of the rocks. That steel stanchion was a length of railway track, disapeared in the late 80s.
A very respected RE Officer, his opinions are sorely missed, as is his very dry sense of humour.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2935
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 67
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyThu Sep 22, 2022 1:26 pm

Frank,

There were indeed issues that arose which forced the short relocation from where Mike actually wanted the bridge. I think we should start a campaign to have the bridge named as “McCabe Bridge” in his honour.

I’ll dig out some other illustrations later on regarding the crossing.

JY
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyThu Sep 22, 2022 1:50 pm

I think Mike would come up with a rather cuting answer to that John. I've long been tempted to post a withering description he e mailed of a certain military author. But don't have the balls.
But yes it would be good to have the illuminarty know who to thank for getting rid of that massive circuit to get from RD to iSandlwana. Over an hours drive.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8423
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyThu Sep 22, 2022 1:54 pm

John if you have any illustrations you wouldn't mind being displayed at the RD Hotel. I would arrange quality prints, with of course your name attached, for Roz to hang. She is always looking for artifacts etc for display.
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2935
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 67
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyThu Sep 22, 2022 5:28 pm

Frank,

I’ll drop you a line on that.

In the meantime another view of the drift.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
(John Young Collection)

The barrels of the barrel raft clearly visible on the bank to the left of the tent.

JY
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 3090
Join date : 2021-01-04

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyThu Sep 22, 2022 5:42 pm

Fantastic pictures JY Salute
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2935
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 67
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

First to cross Empty
PostSubject: Re: First to cross   First to cross EmptyThu Sep 22, 2022 8:53 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
The Pictorial World’s impression of the crossing.
Infantry skirmishers on the Zulu bank.

JY
Back to top Go down
 
First to cross
Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next
 Similar topics
-
» Fugitives Drift
» How Buller won his VC
» Iron Cross
» Bearing the Cross by Ken Blakeson
» With reference to the Victoria Cross ?

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: