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Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
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 Capture of two Englishmen

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Eddie




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PostSubject: Capture of two Englishmen    Capture of two Englishmen  EmptyFri Oct 07, 2022 5:44 pm

South Wales Daily News, Tuesday 11May, 1879.

This spoken by an M P

Capture of two Englishmen alive.

It is said Cetewayo ordered his people to bring him two Englishmen alive and unwounded to his Kraal, and I hear they have got them. A white man, it is said, was among the Zulus fighting on their side, but I should hope this was not true.

Spoken in the commons that week.
Who was the white man fighting for the Zulus?
Who were the two Englishmen?


Last edited by Eddie on Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Capture of two Englishmen    Capture of two Englishmen  EmptySun Oct 09, 2022 8:51 am

A rumour which was doing the rounds at the time.
No truth in it I'm afraid.
Read the Natal newspapers for the corollary.
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ADMIN

ADMIN


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PostSubject: Re: Capture of two Englishmen    Capture of two Englishmen  EmptySun Oct 09, 2022 5:00 pm

Just out of interest!

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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Capture of two Englishmen    Capture of two Englishmen  EmptySun Oct 09, 2022 10:06 pm

Thank you Admin

I have found a newspaper article just on that subject.

South Wales Daily News, Thursday, May 22, 1879.

A Gunner capture and escape.

One of Weatherly's horse troopers, named Grandier, engaged at IIlobani, tells a wonderful tale. He says he was captured by some Zulus and conveyed to the king's Kraal, where he was interviewed by Cetewayo, who wanted him to repair the two guns taken at Isandlwana. He says he saw the guns spiked. When the king found he could not or would not assist him, he sent him to Umbelini's Kraal, to be sacrificed to the manes of the chief, but he escaped by killing one of the Zulus sent to guard him, the other taking flight, then returned to Woods column, and reported he saw 20,000 Zulus marching to Ulinidi. He states when at Ulinidi he saw a Portuguese who makes gun for Cetshwayo.
He also saw a man, whom he descibed as half caste Dutchman, who translates for him.
Cetewayo told him he would kill Oham and Shepstone and everyone else, as he had plenty of men to do the work.
Grandier was threatened and beaten, and for four days had nothing but mealies to eat.


Last edited by Eddie on Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Capture of two Englishmen    Capture of two Englishmen  EmptySun Oct 09, 2022 10:13 pm

Another article in the same newspaper and date above:

On the Orange river encountered the Korannas.
Amongst the prisoners taken was a white man named M'Carthy, who is believed to have been leading the enemy. A petty chief, with some 80 followers, has surrendered in Basutoland.

Who is this M'Carthy?
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John Young

John Young


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PostSubject: Re: Capture of two Englishmen    Capture of two Englishmen  EmptyMon Oct 10, 2022 7:21 am

Eddie,

I haven’t studied Griqua - then sometimes referred to as Korannas - history of the period to any great extent, but a search does reveal the name MacCarthy does appear in relation to Griqua “bandits” or “rebels” at the time.

Suffice to say it has nothing to do with the AmaZulu or the Zulu War.

JY

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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Capture of two Englishmen    Capture of two Englishmen  EmptyMon Oct 10, 2022 9:30 am

And note that Grandier, the only POW in the war, was captured at Hlobane. The newspaper you quote from in your first post dates from BEFORE that battle!!
As I said before, there is no truth in the report.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Capture of two Englishmen    Capture of two Englishmen  EmptyMon Oct 10, 2022 9:57 am

Thank you John/Julian.

There is another article in The Weekly Mail, Saturday, May 24th,1879. This time written in the Cape Times.

The Cape Times states that some fighting has occured in the Northern Frontier border, when 21 prisoners were taken including a white man named M'Carthy, who has been among the enemy since the beginning of the war.

This comes under the heading: THE WAR IN ZULULAND.

The Cape Times states M'Carthy being among the enemy since the beginning of the war.
To my mind there was only one war being fought at that time in Zululand, I may be wrong.
John you maybe right in your post above but this clearly states, "The War".in a cape newspaper.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Capture of two Englishmen    Capture of two Englishmen  EmptyMon Oct 10, 2022 10:10 am

Julian.

I have edited the date in my original post, as predicted text placed March instead of May
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Capture of two Englishmen    Capture of two Englishmen  EmptyMon Oct 10, 2022 11:08 am

Eddie,

The Cape Colony was also at war in 1879 on the colony’s northern borders fighting in what is now Lesotho.

The fighting took place between late February and late November 1879 against Moorosi of the Baphuthi.  The Orange River mentioned above by yourself was in that theatre of operations.

The Zulu War was in fact one of three wars fought in Southern Africa in 1879.

Moorosi’s Mountain or Moorosi’s Stronghold are often wrongly associated with the Zulu War, despite the fact it was nowhere near to KwaZulu, so you have to be careful as the newspaper content that you consider.

Three Victoria Crosses were awarded to members of the Cape Colonial Forces during the campaign against Moorosi.

JY
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Capture of two Englishmen    Capture of two Englishmen  EmptyMon Oct 10, 2022 2:57 pm

Thank you very much for that John, that is very interesting.
Shame the newspapers couldn't get it right, and included it within the Zulu war.
Thank you for straightening things out for me.
As Julian says, there was only one prisoner taken during the war.

So as you say, M'Carthy was a bandit as such, or a rebel belonging to the Moorosi's.

Once again misinterpreted by the British Press as part of the Zulu war. Where as the Cape Times was stating the facts as they were in their Northern borders, the British believed it to be part of the Zulu war.

Thank you once again



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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Capture of two Englishmen    Capture of two Englishmen  EmptyMon Oct 10, 2022 5:44 pm

Eddie
Note that the newspapers didn't get it wrong - they correctly published what they had in effect had been reported. It just didn't happen to be true. A bit like WOMD!!
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