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New topics | » The curious tale of Cetshwayo's "gunpowder depot" and an aggressive snakeWed Apr 24, 2024 3:26 pm by Hobbes » Lieut. B. Pohl, No. 7 Coy 1/3 Natal Native ContingentSat Apr 20, 2024 12:38 am by WeekendWarrior » Alfred Fairlie Henderson photographs.Fri Apr 19, 2024 7:04 am by John Young » Late Father's Militaria CollectionThu Apr 18, 2024 3:04 pm by A Crockart » Anson A. Mayer/MaherTue Apr 16, 2024 5:28 pm by cmeghen » A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)Sun Apr 14, 2024 8:01 pm by Hobbes » Sickness among Crealock's menThu Apr 11, 2024 8:51 pm by Hobbes » Wheeler John Cantwell DCM, RD survivor of the Royal Horse ArtillerySun Apr 07, 2024 9:36 pm by Hobbes » John Robert DunnSat Mar 30, 2024 11:47 am by SueSNB |
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| | Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young | |
| | Author | Message |
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gardner1879
Posts : 3458 Join date : 2021-01-04
| Subject: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Sun Feb 12, 2023 1:48 pm | |
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| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Sun Feb 12, 2023 1:55 pm | |
| Kate that's rather a unique find. it's the first time I have seen defence of the them and an explanation of their activities. Nice one. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10882 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: NNC Isandlwana Holcroft , Avery and Young Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:57 am | |
| Hi Frank I've read in a couple of publications that Holcroft & Avery had been given permission to return to the camp due to their failing health , I've also seen in other publications that they ' took off ' without permission ! . 90th |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:48 am | |
| Hi Gary I would agree there have been differing reports, Kates find seems to put some 'flesh on the bones'.
Cheers
PS Watched the Womans world cup match yesterday, lady by the name of Healy was awesum. Wondered if she was any relation to Ian. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10882 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: NNC Isandlwana Holcroft , Avery and Young Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:58 am | |
| Hi Frank I can't remember where I read that Holcroft and Avery were given Permission to return to the camp , may've been Keith Smith ? Not sure if you aren't actually sure about Alysa Healey .... she's the Niece of Ian Healy and is married to Mitch Starc . Got to 42 deg here in my suburb today ..... of course it did as we got off the Cruise ship in Melbourne this morning . 90th PS We've just lost our 2nd Wicket in the 2nd Test 2/92 , DAMN just saw that Smith is also out 0 in 2 balls , 1/ 91 , now in the blink of eye 3/93 ! can we get 200 ?? Doubtful ! |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 3959 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:51 pm | |
| ES (9th ed., 2020) p. 11: "It is often wrongly asserted that these officers (Avery/Holcroft) departed without leave. In fact both, exhausted through dysentery attacks, obtained leave to fall out from their respective C.O.s. See Natal Colonist Correspondent, Letter 8th February 1879, Natal Witness, 18th February 1879." The discovery was made by Frederic Bomy.
Last edited by Julian Whybra on Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 3959 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:57 pm | |
| I've since then come across a second reference to their being ill and having to return to camp. |
| | | gardner1879
Posts : 3458 Join date : 2021-01-04
| Subject: Re: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:26 pm | |
| "ES (9th ed., 2020) p. 11: "It is often wrongly asserted that these officers (Avery/Holcroft) departed without leave. In fact both, exhausted through dysentery attacks, obtained leave to fall out from their respective C.O.s. See Natal Colonist Correspondent, Letter 8th February 1879, Natal Witness, 18th February 1879." The discovery was made by Frederic Bomy." Not sure why you have repeated this information Julian, isn't that what was written in the article above? |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10882 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Natal Native Contingent Isandlwana Holcroft , Avery & Young Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:05 am | |
| Hi Julian Can you give me the 2nd reference regarding Holcroft & Avery obtaining permission to head back to Isandlwana ? , I've seen it somewhere over the years but can't remember where ! . 90th |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 3959 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:05 am | |
| It's written because the information is not new. Apart from the above cutting saying they received permission from their respective commanders it has appeared elsewhere and I believe Keith smith did use it. |
| | | gardner1879
Posts : 3458 Join date : 2021-01-04
| Subject: Re: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:07 am | |
| I didn't say it was new. I just put it on here because I thought it would be interesting for people to read. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 3959 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:08 am | |
| I know you didn't. And it is very interesting for people to read. |
| | | gardner1879
Posts : 3458 Join date : 2021-01-04
| Subject: Re: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:26 am | |
| Nope still confused, so why then did you repeat the information from the original article in your 5.51pm post? |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 3959 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:30 pm | |
| For Frank's information should he cite it in one of his publications in future. Fred is an excellent researcher. Credit where credit's due. |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:41 pm | |
| I have mentioned Fred's research abilities and my regard for him in 'Solving the Enigma'. Nothings changed. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 3959 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:43 pm | |
| Pleased to hear it Frank. |
| | | gardner1879
Posts : 3458 Join date : 2021-01-04
| Subject: Re: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Sat Feb 18, 2023 7:01 pm | |
| Ahhhh so it was for Frank's benefit. You should have said that first time round. And theres me mistakingly thinking you repeated the information because you couldn't bear the thought that someone else was getting credit for something you already knew. Silly me. As I said before I'm not claiming it is new. Nor am I trying to steal anyones thunder or commenting on Fred's ability as a researcher. I just put it on there for the interest of other forum members. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 3959 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Sat Feb 18, 2023 7:50 pm | |
| Well, all right then, since it's your suggestion, silly you. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10882 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Natal Native Contingent Isandlwana Holcroft , Avery & Young Sun Feb 19, 2023 11:47 pm | |
| Hi Julian I mentioned in an earlier post that Holcroft & Avery both received permission to head back to Isandlwana due to Illness , I also suggested it came from Keith Smith , and you also believe this to be correct , as much as I've looked ( 2 or 3 times !) I can't find any mention of them in ' Studies In The AZW ' or ' Select Documents ; A Zulu War Sourcebook ' , although , they are listed in the index... the page numbers are incorrect , and in the updated ' Dead Was Everything ; Studies In The Anglo Zulu War ' Holcroft & Avery aren't indexed ! . Hopefully you're aware of the quotes whereabouts ? . 90th |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 3959 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:59 am | |
| 90th I have been looking for it myself! No luck so far. It's strange we should both have the same recollection. I'll keep looking. Perhaps it wasn't in a publication but in an e-mail he sent me. I'll trawl through them. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10882 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Natal Native Contingent Isandlwana Holcroft , Avery & Young Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:11 am | |
| Thanks Julian , I also had a quick look in Thompson's Black Soldiers of the Queen , didn't find it there , but it was a quick look , Hamilton - Browne was non to complimentary about them , he obviously didn't give or know of their permissions !? 90th |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 3959 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Tue Feb 21, 2023 7:48 am | |
| 90th I am wondering whether the Natal Colonist correspondent might be Higginson. It was Higginson who exposed Lieut. Young's fake account in a letter to the Witness and he does it here in this reproduced article from the Colonist. And of course, as adjutant, Higginson was in a position to KNOW for certain the information provided on Avery, Holcroft, Young and the battalions' numbers. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10882 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Natal Native Contingent Isandlwana Holcroft , Avery & Young Tue Feb 21, 2023 7:54 am | |
| Julian I don't know , with Higginson being at Isandlwana , Avery & Holcroft returning during the evening of the 21st you'd expect they reported to someone ? . 90th
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| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 3959 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:02 am | |
| My feeling is that they reported to Higginson as adjutant and would have shown their permits to him - which is how he knew. It's logical. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10882 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Natal Native Contingent Isandlwana Holcroft , Avery & Young Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:05 am | |
| Yes Julian it makes sense , especially as we're both certain we've previously seen where they were given permission to return . 90th |
| | | | Natal Native Contingent iSandlwana Holcroft Avery Young | |
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