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 Which Battle Doe's This Portrait

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptyWed Dec 02, 2009 7:58 pm

I'm thinking Isandlwana.

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptyWed Dec 02, 2009 11:16 pm

The wagons in the background seemed to be in a laager formation. Could this be Ntombi River?
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90th

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PostSubject: which battle does this portray.   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptyThu Dec 03, 2009 5:33 am

hi littlehand.
I"m going with Younghusband as he and his men fought their way down the slope of Isandlwana. Even though
this is depicted on flat ground. I bought a similar print on ebay a couple of weeks ago entitled " At Bay "
cheers 90th

here is the one I bought.

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptyThu Dec 03, 2009 7:02 am

Extract from: By Bertram Mitford. Interviewing a Zulu Warrior that took part in the Battle of Isandlwana

"There was an induna in front of them with a long flashing sword, which he whirled round his head as he ran it must have been made of fire."
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptyThu Dec 03, 2009 11:28 am

I would hazard a guess at niether/both. The waggons in the background say Ntombi, but is that a regimental Flag in the top right? So possibly a re enactment of Ntombi starring Mellville and Younghusband scratch
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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptyThu Dec 03, 2009 3:44 pm

I will go with Ntombi as well based on the wagon formation.

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PostSubject: Re: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptyFri Nov 25, 2011 3:49 pm

It could be Intombi River, but if it is, the artist took quite a few liberties.

scratch Where is the river? Also the soldiers have too many clothes on. Remember that the soldiers at the Intombi River stumbled straight from their beds to their graves, so to speak. Because of the incessant rains their clothes were wet and many were drying them during the night, so that I suppose very few would have worn a full set of clothes.

I would rather think it depicts one of the other battles.

On the picture of the Battle of Intombi River from the Illustrated London News of 10 May 1879 one of the soldiers is actually depicted crawling out of the river naked. This is probably Josiah Sussens. I will get somebody to paste the picture for me, then I'll publish his account of the battle as reported in a Pretoria newspaper.
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ciroferrara

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PostSubject: Re: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptyFri Nov 25, 2011 5:26 pm

i beleive i read somewhere that this image was originally meant to depict the ntombi massacre but has since been used to depict isandlwana
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PostSubject: Re: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptyFri Nov 25, 2011 5:43 pm

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Photo by forum member Ralph Hinze
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kwajimu1879

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PostSubject: Re: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptyFri Nov 25, 2011 7:36 pm

I only have this as a magic lantern slide, so please forgive the poor quality of the reproduction, the slide is captioned as 'An Attack on a Waggon Escort', therefore I'd go with Ntombe.

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptyFri Nov 25, 2011 8:42 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptySun Nov 27, 2011 10:02 pm

Admin, thanks for your help with publishing the picture from ILN above.

Here then is Sussens' letter with Sic.. left in place from the Transvaal Argus. I asked a question about it on another forum and a person calling himself Dundee Boer sent the full account:

How a Pretorian Escaped from the Intombe River Disaster

“I was in the wagon, sleeping, and early in the morning I got up to see if it was daylight, and the kafirs swarming around within twenty yards of me. The alarm was given, and Captain Moriarty called out “Guards out.” I ran back to my wagon to get my rifle (which belonged to No. 1 company Transvaal Rifle Volunteers, of which corps I am a member) but in the confusion of the bullets flying about me, I could not get it out. I now found it so dangerous that I determined to try to bolt, if I could, without remaining to take out my cloths. As I emerged from the wagon for the last time, I heard Captain Moriarty cry out, “Fire away, men, I am done.” I then went to the adjoining wagon to call Whittington (also a Pretoria man), and told him the niggers were around. He immediately came out and jumped down, but was caught almost as soon as he got to the ground, and, assegaid on every side. The poor fellow shrieked out, but without avail, as no assistance was at hand. Seeing that I was powerless to do anything, having no arms of any kind, I ran down between the oxen, and made for the river, which was about 60 yards off. I found the Zulus shooting and stabbing the people in all directions. The sight was a most horrifying one, and one never to be forgotten. I had to dodge about to save myself, and am now surprised to find that I managed to get through at all. As soon as I got to the river, I jumped in and made a dive, as swimming was too dangerous, the Zulus standing on the banks, and at the edge of the river, as thick as thieves, throwing assegais and aiming their guns wherever they saw a head. I came up about the middle of the river, but the moment my head was out, I saw several Zulus pointing their guns, and ready to fire. I therefore dived again, and came out on the other side. The river was very full at the time, and a strong current running. In crossing I had torn off my shirt, the only garment I possessed, and therefore when I landed I was entirely in a state of nudity. I now found that fighting was still going on on all sides of me, and that it was almost impossible I could get any further, and in my desperation I contemplated throwing myself in the water, to be drowned peaceably, rather than suffer the death by torture of many of those I saw around me. I however, got into a courageous spirit again, and dashed off, keeping as much out of the way of the enemy as I could. Several shots were fired at me, and assegais were flying in all directions, but somehow I happened to be fortunate and got clear of the encampment. I made for Myer’s station as fast as I could, and overtook one soldier on the road, who was shot dead just as I got up to him. I overtook two others shortly after, who were also shot. Getting further on, I fell in with Sergeant Booth and about a dozen men, who were keeping up a retreating fire, and fighting very pluckily. I rested for a few minutes with them, during which time I espied the Zulus coming round the hill to intercept us. I informed Sergeant Booth of this, and he kept up a steady fire upon them, and made the enemy retire back into the hills. I cannot speak too highly of the conduct of Sergeant Booth on this occasion; he fought most pluckily, and lost four of his small band here. It was entirely owing to their doing so well that any of us managed to get through at all. The Zulus would have entirely surrounded us, and not a soul could have escaped. Seventeen leaders and drivers were killed altogether, amongst them being Whittington, Campbell, and Goss. As I got in camp, I met Major Tucker going out with his men to the relief. Eight of us managed to get to Luneberg, and perhaps it would not be out of place if I were to state how I was received. Arriving in a state of nudity, with the exception of a soldiers overcoat, got from a native on the road, I applied to the authorities for blankets to sleep under, but was refused. They said they had none. Eight of us only had two blankets between the lot. To add to our annoyance two wounded Zulus were brought in (one was on my own cartel) and were put into a nice tent and covered with blankets, whilst we had to take our chances as best we could underneath the wagons. Only a very few of us survivors had any cloths on when we arrived, and we managed to get along as best we could -a shirt from a soldier, trowsers from a second, boots from a third, and so on. A sale of clothing, &c., took place afterwards, when we were allowed to buy a few things. And so we got on.”
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PostSubject: Re: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptySun Nov 27, 2011 10:29 pm

Ralph. Thanks very much for posting this. With reference to below. Am I to take it the Zulu's in-question were friendly Zulu's NNC ect. Or were they members of the attacking Zulu Force.

Do we have the names of these 8 Surviors, Good to see he gives a good account of Sgt Booth..

Quote :
To add to our annoyance two wounded Zulus were brought in (one was on my own cartel) and were put into a nice tent and covered with blankets, whilst we had to take our chances as best we could underneath the wagons.

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90th

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PostSubject: Which battle Does tis portray.   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptySun Nov 27, 2011 11:24 pm

Hi Pete.
The ILN you posted on behalf of Ralph is certainly the Ntombe Drift Battle . If I'm not mistaken I think that is the cover
of Bartlett's book .
cheers 90th. Idea .
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PostSubject: Re: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptyMon Nov 28, 2011 11:06 am

Hallo Littlehand

I am glad you enjoyed the account as much as I did.

I don't know who the Zulus were, but I presume they were friendly Zulus, probably wagon drivers or so that survived somehow. I cannot imagine that the British rescuers would have spared any foe's life after seeing their own comrades' bodies mutilated at Entombe drift (which historically is erroneously spelled Intombi Drift).

The picture from ILN is definitely of Entombe Drift. One can roughly make out the shape of the mountains. On the right there is Tafelberg (Table Mountain) which looks more like the Cape Town one than the one on the spot, but it is identifiable none the less! In reality one can't fit all these mountains into one picture standing at the Entombe Drift, as they form a circle of almost 180 degrees around you.

Regards.

Ralph
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Neil Aspinshaw

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PostSubject: Re: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptyMon Nov 28, 2011 5:00 pm

Or Khambula, the Zulu's got to the wagons,which were In Laager, with riflemen on the wagons, and don't forget Lt Brights" bayonet charge to push the Zulu's off the ledge...just a thought.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 11:21 pm

This photo is on the front cover of Curlings book

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Cheers
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matthew83

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PostSubject: Re: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 11:44 pm

Neil Aspinshaw wrote:
Or Khambula, the Zulu's got to the wagons,which were In Laager, with riflemen on the wagons, and don't forget Lt Brights" bayonet charge to push the Zulu's off the ledge...just a thought.


That's what I had thought too, perhaps Hackett's sortie?
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90th

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PostSubject: Which Battle does this portray    Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 1:29 am

Hi Neil / Matt .
As far as I'm aware there wasnt a river this close to the kambula camp , to me its the cover of Bartlett's book and
it certainly is to represent the Imtombe River Massacre .
cheers 90th. 😕

ps. There are two pictures on here at the moment , the one involving the river is the one I'm on about .
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90th

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PostSubject: Bartlett's Book    Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 10:02 pm

Hi All.
This is the Illustrated London News picture which appears on the Bartlett Book . Fairly expensive this copy i've seen
them much less expensive . Suspect .

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cheers 90th. 😕
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matthew83

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PostSubject: Re: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 10:18 pm

Studying both images, I cannot help but think they are not one and the same, the smaller image cannot be found within the larger.

The larger image on the London illustrated paper is undoubtably intombe, the smaller; only Khambula holds weight for me.

Happy to be corrected, can anybody find an engravers source?

Cheers

Matt
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PostSubject: Re: Which Battle Doe's This Portrait   Which Battle Doe's This Portrait EmptyTue Dec 27, 2011 7:06 pm

Anyone got any idea who the artist was or when it was painted?

Reading all your posts, it could simply be a generic amalgam of a battle scene from the AZW.
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