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 A White Prisoner In Zululand

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat
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littlehand

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PostSubject: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyTue Mar 16, 2010 7:53 pm

Anyone know the name of the Prisoner.

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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyTue Mar 16, 2010 9:53 pm

This could be the Frenchman who was supposed to have been captured during the retreat from Hlobane. and who escaped by killing one of his guards while being taken to Umbehni's clan for execution. They said that a white man had been taken prisoner and brought to Ulundi; that Cetywayo had questioned him, and had then sent him back under an escort, with orders that he should be let go near Hlobane, so he could find his way to the English camp, but they knew nothing about the killing of the guard. Their statement agreed with that of other Zulus whom I interrogated on the subject in various parts of the country.

"But there are improbabilities about the Frenchman's story, which certainly seem to need accounting for. His escape was avowedly made during the halt after the first march, to wit, within a few miles of Ulundi. But in that case it would not take long for the surviving guard to return at full speed and raise the country on the fugitive's heels, whose recapture would be but a question of a very few hours. Then, again, from Ulundi to the Zunguin, where Grandier was picked up, is a little matter of fifty miles as the crow flies, and a good deal more by any known track; further, it is extremely rugged and mountainous, as the foregoing pages may have served to show. How, then, could this man, on foot and without food, find his way across an unknown wilderness, exposed, as he would be, to the glance of Zulu scouting parties patrolling the hills? On the other hand, it may fairly be asked what motive would Cetywayo have for sparing the life of a prisoner an unusual act of leniency on the part of a savage chief exasperated too, as he would naturally be, by the defeat of his forces at Kambula and the loss of hundreds of his best warriors. Unless it were that the King had heard how some Zulu prisoners had been tended by our surgeons, or, with a desperate sense of his ultimate downfall Coming more and more home to him, thought by this act of clemency to commend himself more readily to our sympathies when his day came, and take a step in the direction of agreeing with his adversary quickly. Again, should Grandier's narrative be correct in every particular, it might be that the survivor of the two men who guarded him, fearing to go back and tell the King how ill he had acquitted himself of his charge, had simply made himself scarce and said nothing, which would account for the Frenchman not being recaptured. But whatever may be thought of the tale, the Zulus all agree that the King's orders were for the release of the captive."

Source: Through the Zulu country; its battlefields and its people (1883)
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90th

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PostSubject: white prisoner in zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyWed Mar 17, 2010 12:57 am

hi littlehand .
This is from " Companion to the Zulu War " by Ian. Knight .
" His name was Ernest Grandier , and he was french , a native of Bordeaux where he had been a stonecutter , he had come to Africa , presumably to make his fortune , but like so many other itinerant adventurers he had failed to do so , and on the outbreak
of war he had enlisted as a trooper in Weatherley's Border Horse . He had fought with them at Hlobane on 28th March , and at the height of the battle had been captured as the Border horse were driven across the Ityenka Nek . "

In Grandier"s own words he said he saw the spiked cannon taken from Isandlwana , but we know for a fact the cannon"s
werent spiked . I think his story has some credibility but not all of it seems to be correct , he may have added a few thoughts
and not stated some others !!. As some say " Never let the facts get in the way of a good story " . :lol!:
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyWed Mar 17, 2010 12:14 pm

hi
in the book 'Our fathers' there is an account of what happened to Grandier
this is what it says
'captured after the battle of zlolbane hill he was lashed to a pole wothout clothes and exposed to burning sun by day and biting cold by night. in the morning the zulus would beat him with sticks to restore the circulation.
taken 70 miles to cetewayos kraal, he was brought naked before the king while women jeered and spat upon him. cetewayo told him he would be taken back to umbelini who would cut him up bit by bit until he died. during the journey he killed one of his two guards with an assegi and carried of the gun off the other and hid in a hole while an army of 15,000 zulus passed by. still nude he reached safety after a journey of 50 hours'

there is also a great image of him with cetewayo at the kraal
heres the link
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page 124

hope this adds a bit more info

thanks joe
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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyWed Mar 17, 2010 9:32 pm

Joe. Thanks for the link.

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Source. 'Our fathers
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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyWed Mar 17, 2010 10:04 pm

So can i take it this event did happen. I thought it was fiction.

Mr G
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90th

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PostSubject: white prisoner in zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyThu Mar 18, 2010 4:23 am

hi Mrg.
I dont think there is any doubt that something happened with Grandier and the zulus , but , not all Grandier
said can be taken as the whole truth and nothing but the truth !!!. As I mentioned in an earlier post there is
some conflicting evidence between what Grandier says happened and what the zulus said . I think somewhere
in the middle is most likely what took place . Idea
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Grandier and Bonaparte   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyMon Dec 19, 2011 7:46 am

Hi all

Apart from Grandier and Bonaparte someone you it heard of other French during the Zulu War?

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyMon Dec 19, 2011 8:18 am

Pascal,

There were other Frenchmen who were in Border Horse - Troopers Bourdoin, Milma & Mulot - were killed at Hlobane.

There were some Frenchmen wounded at Hlobane, as the exiled Prince Imperial visited them in hospital. They could be Corporal Brusseau of the Frontier Light Horse & Trooper Tourkien of the Transvaal Rangers.

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PostSubject: Grandier and Bonaparte   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyMon Dec 19, 2011 9:06 am

Hello

Thank you, as it's super interesting topic, but it's amazing that there have been so many, the colonial troops in South Africa was the Foreign Legion?

You know with others? It's too awesome !

And those who did not even speak English like me and there was in the infantry of Natal Native Contingent, they have a rough time ...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyMon Dec 19, 2011 10:46 am

Pascal,

Apparently a number of the men who had sought a new life in South Africa were Communards from the Paris Commune.

Don't forget Schiess from Rorke's Drift fought in the French army during the Franco-Prussian War of 1870.

There's a connection with France and the 24th: Bromhead was born in Versailles. The brothers Degacher were from Saint Omer.

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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyMon Dec 19, 2011 11:08 am


Hi

Those who had fought during the War of 1870 and especially in the Paris Commune should be terrible fighters...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyTue Dec 20, 2011 8:11 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Hi

Those who had fought during the War of 1870 and especially in the Paris Commune should be terrible fighters...

Cheers

Pascal

Hi Pascal, could you clarify the above remark?
Also, Pascal, would you be kind enough to share with us your interest in the AZW? It is an unusual topic for a Frenchman to be interested in! I am intrigued!
Tasker
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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyTue Dec 20, 2011 8:23 pm

The Prince Imperial and models come to mind. I think Pascal is a wonderful addition to the forum. I would like to know how he found this forum. And I'm glad he did. Idea
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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyTue Dec 20, 2011 8:28 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
The Prince Imperial and models come to mind. I think Pascal is a wonderful addition to the forum. I would like to know how he found this forum. And I'm glad he did. Idea

I second that.
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PostSubject: Pascal Mahe   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyTue Dec 20, 2011 8:34 pm

Hi All,
I do not wish to answer for Pascal, as he will not doubt do that himself, but his one interest is war gaming and he is a manufacturer of superb wargaming models. Hence his interest in Gatlings, artillary, dress and insignia etc.
He also believes that Zabanga should be awarded the Creux de Guerre, ....posthumously, of course.
He is indeed a very valuable member of this forum has has considerable knowledge of the subject.


barry
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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyTue Dec 20, 2011 8:38 pm

Every member of the forum is valuable. Even GTSG Idea
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PostSubject: Grandier & Bonaparte    A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyWed Dec 21, 2011 1:44 am

Hi Littlehand .

:lol!: :lol!: Agreed . :lol!: :lol!: .
cheers 90th. 😕
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PostSubject: Grandier and Bonaparte   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyWed Dec 21, 2011 9:16 am

HELLO DEAR TASKER224:

PASCAL:

Those who had fought during the War of 1870 and Especially in the Paris Commune should be terrible fighters ..

TASKER224:

Pascal, could you clarify the above remark?

PASCAL:

I think, when we had survived the fire power of the Prussian army and his German auxiliaries, and the horrors of the two sieges of Paris, one must have extensive military experience and a lot of courage (eg Schiess at Rorke's Drift) and find very relaxing to face the Zulus, the only problem is that they made ​​no prisoners, except Grandier, as it was captured by women ...

And as many non-french women love the Frenchmen,it's good for Grandier,no?...

TASKER224:

Also, Pascal, would you be kind Enough to share with us your interest in the AZW?

PASCAL:

But I'm still kind my friend, even when it causes me and this will always be a pleasure to talk with everyone on this forum, d'ailleurs it's vital for me, since I have little knowledge, for compared to most people on this forum, and we will see, November 27, 2012 what I learned from all those who respond to my questions ...

TASKER224:

It Is An unusual topic for a Frenchman to Be Interested in! I am intrigued!

PASCAL:

"Frenchman" by nationality only !

Because I am a Breton by blood, many people believe Bretons when they are Gallo-Romans (descended from the Armorican Gaulish ) and others because they were born in Britanny, so that 'they have no celtiques ancestors .

I'm "Anglophyle" because the ancestors of the Bretons are the Sub-Romans British and the ancestors of the Sub-Romans British , are the ancients Brittons.
As you can see, my love for the UK is in the blood, and I think the real Bretons are more British than the British "majoritée" today...

Because the Bretons come from Britain ...

When the Sub-Romans British have left the current Wales, the current Devonshire and the current British Cornwall for the Armorican peninsula to fifth and sixth century because of the raids of the Scots and Picts (see the life of St Patrick), they came to power thanks to their terrible cavalry (the same as that of Arthur, but Lancelot, for example was Breton not Sub-Roman British, because born in Britanny ,that's Why it was the most terrible of Arthurian cavalrymen) and the Armorican Peninsula became Brittany.

Then the Bretons protected the Brittany of the Merovingian Franks (Clovis was never able to conquer the Brittany ) and the Carolingians Franks (Charlemagne was never able to conquer the Brittany ) and then protect the Brittany from Viking (otherwise they would have made ​​a second Normandy) and protected the Brittany from the French with the help of the English Longbowmen ...(Duguesclin is a traitor to the Bretons, moreover it is not a true Breton, half of its ancestors are of Scandinavian origin)


But this is just for your information, so I like 1000 times more the history of Britain that the history of France without knowing why, it must be in the blood ?

And in terms of the Zulu War, after reading the MAA No. 57 in 1977, I loved the Zulus, and after a few years (in the late 80's, I dropped, yet j 'was in correspondence with Ian Knight and Ian Castle, but at that time, they had time to correspond with me) Then I'm interested in other periods and recently I got delivered and I need this forum to make up for lost time ...

Now I will not let down because I'm too old and I have the energy to be interested in other times ...

But nevertheless, a pleasant change, I'm very interested also in the last two british wars against the Xhosa, the last British wars against the Basotho, the two British wars against the Pedi, cousins ​​of the Basotho, the two Zulu rebellions in both 1888 and 1906 and the two british wars against the Matabele and more I love the Swazis, in fact I love the British colonial wars only if they are in South Africa ...

But you will see it next year with pictures of my miniatures, I painted a few dozen ...

I love the history of all the black people of South Africa, when they face the British (and Swazis, though for me they are for the English, the Crows, Pawnee and the Shoshonee of the Americans ) , each black nations with their military traditions and ingenuity, courage ,unheard ect ...

But I like them less when they fight each other or against the Boers(I hate racism of the Boers and all forms of racism against the poor black)

Because I love the British Army of Victoria, even though I hate what he has to do and if the Victorian societée was horrible ... Its uniforms are beautiful, the Old Steady Shot has the mouth and the British soldiers were from the Anglo-Saxons, the world champions of defensive tactics in place that is the one I preferr ...


Phew! It is now dear TASKER224, you'll be able to make you a little idea of why I am on this forum, it will be there?

Cheers

Pascal












































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PostSubject: Grandier and Bonaparte   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyWed Dec 21, 2011 9:26 am

Answer for Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Hi and thanks

I found this forum by seeking documentation on google is the best forum of all on the subject and in a few years it will be a genuine, unavoidable and unsurpassable and huge encyclopedia on the Zulu War ...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Grandier and Bonaparte   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyWed Dec 21, 2011 9:32 am

For Littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyWed Dec 21, 2011 9:34 am

Fo the Old 90 th "d'infanterie légère,vainqueur partout ou il combat "
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PostSubject: Grandier and Bonaparte   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyWed Dec 21, 2011 9:36 am

For Barry, who has a taste for those who do not know

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24th

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PostSubject: Bernhardt. Confirmation please   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptySat Oct 13, 2012 10:20 pm

Can anyone confirm, if a " Bernhardt" took part in the Zulu's war, if yes what happen to him. I believe he was in the " Weatherley Divison"
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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptySat Oct 13, 2012 10:46 pm

24th The only Bernhardt I can find is:

Lance Corporal Bernhardt E. Border Horse Killed in Action Inhlobane 28 March 1879
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90th

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PostSubject: Bernhardt Confirmation Please    A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptySun Oct 14, 2012 7:00 am

24th .
'' Weatherley Division '' ? , I assume you mean the ' Border Horse ' as this was the unit that was commanded by Weatherley .
Lance Corp Edward Bernhardt as littlehand posted was indeed KIA at Hlobane on the 28 / 3 / 79 . From Germany , Enlisted at Pretoria . This from Terry Sole's ' For God , Queen & Colony ' .
Cheers 90th
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptySun Oct 14, 2012 8:37 pm

"Bernhardt " Wasn't this the chap, whose body was dug up and stripped of clothes by the Zulu's, well according to that French chap, who was taken prisoner? Can't think of his name scratch
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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptySun Oct 14, 2012 10:09 pm

Read from "A prisoner among Zulu's"

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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyMon Oct 15, 2012 11:44 pm

Thanks for posting, I reall reading there is some doubt as to wether or not the story is true.
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PostSubject: Did They Or Didnt They Take Part In The AZW. Bernhardt Confirmation   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyTue Oct 16, 2012 3:25 am

Hi All.
' The Story Of The Zulu Campaign ' by Major Ashe ( who wasnt in sth africa ) & Capt Wyatt - Edgell 17th Lancers ( who was KIA at Ulundi ) has Grandier's story , seems it was told to W- Edgell who in turn sent it to Ashe back in Eng.
For those who have the book it's on p 207 - 220 . This version doesnt mention Bernharhdt and is a little different to the one posted by Littlehand . Not a great deal in there that isnt already known , but worth a read if you can get it cheap enough ! . Here is a link . This is the best deal I found after a quick search , there was one at Amazon just short of 8 GBP'S but it was used and only listed its condition as acceptable . so may as well look at this one .



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cheers 90th. You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyFri Feb 01, 2013 3:35 pm

Who was the Dutchman!!!!

"One trooper, a Frenchman named Grandier, had a very remarkable escape from Indhlobane, of which the follow¬ing is his account: On coming down the mountain we were met by a large Zulu force, and fell back across the neck assailed on all sides. I was about the last, having put a comrade on my horse whilst I ran alongside, when a Kafir caught me by the legs, and I was made prisoner. I was taken to Umbilini's kraal and questioned; after which, I passed the night tied to a tree. Next day 1 was taken into the middle of a large "impi," where I was threatened with death, but the leader said he would send me to Cetywayo. Next day I started for Ulundi, in charge of four men, who were riding, but I had all my clothes taken from me, and had to walk, carrying their food. On the evening of the fourth day we reached Ulundi, and I was kept tied in the open till about noon next day, when Cetywayo sent for me, and questioned me about what the English wanted, where Shepstone was, etc. A Dutchman acted as interpreter, and I saw a Portuguese, and an English-speaking Zulu, who could read.* Cetywayo had a personal guard of about one hundred men, but I did not see any large numbers of men at his kraal, but there were two small cannons there. During my stay I was fed on mealies, and frequently beaten. At last messengers arrived reporting the death of Umbilini, and Cetywayo said he would send me to his Kafirs to kill. On 13th April I started in charge of two Kafirs, one armed with a gun and both with assegais. About midday wTe were lying down, the Kafirs being sleepy, when I seized an assegai and killed the man with the gun, the other running away. I walked all night guided by the stars; next day I saw an impi driving cattle towards Ulundi, so had to lie still. After this I saw no Kafirs, and walked on at night.

On the morning of the 16th I met some of our own people and was brought into camp. Trooper Grandier, when brought in, was dressed in an old corduroy coat, cut with assegai stabs, and a pair of regimental trousers cut off at the knee; these he had picked up on the Yeldt. He had strips of cloth round his feet.

Trooper Grandier's story of ill-treatment has since been contradicted by this Dutchman".

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PostSubject: Re: A White Prisoner In Zululand   A White Prisoner In Zululand EmptyFri Feb 01, 2013 7:04 pm

impi,

The Dutchman was Cornelius Vijn.

You can read his story in “Cetshwayo’s Dutchman”

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Petty Officer Tom


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