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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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 At what Point Was The Battle Lost?

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impi

impi

Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 40

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySat Jul 31, 2010 11:21 pm

Hi. I'm just trying to work out at what point the battle was lost.

Was it at the point when Durnford retreated to the donga causing the firing line to become over extended, or when the Native Contingent broke and fled?

Or was it a combination of both? Idea
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Posts : 2583
Join date : 2009-04-24

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySat Jul 31, 2010 11:59 pm

Hi impi. Good to see you still posting. Idea

The Native Contingent, were positioned with the artillery to the far left two cannons firing towards the east.

On the right of the guns there was a line of Bristish soldiers placed in extended order, which consisted of two companies of the 1/24th Regiment and one company of the 2/24th under the command of Lieutenant Pope with a large-opening between each regiment. Further to the right, and fair distance away, was Colonel Durnford with his men, who were making their last stand.

The Zulus were advancing in thousands, the chest moving from the north-east, countless numbers of Zulu’s were cut down. But the British front line had to fall back.
The Native Contingent were left in an advanced and secluded position by 1 pm even with their gallant defence, the Zulus had come up to within 300 yards. Ammunition was low and their firing no longer having any effect.

The Zulus moved forward; forcing the Native Contingent to break and run. At this point the Zulu’s at the run poured all the way through the gap. The beginning of the fearsome slaughter. The Zulu's avanced so fast that Cavaye and Mostyn had no time to reorganization or even to give the order to fix bayonets, the Zulu’s were among them.

Younghusband for a short time retreated to a terrace on the southern incline of the mountain, but it was all to soon before they joined their comrades.

Hope this helps. (Good Night)
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90th

90th

Posts : 10135
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: at what point was the battle lost.   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySun Aug 01, 2010 5:39 am

hi Impi.
Call me a pesimist but the battle was lost once the Good Lord left the camp . Pulleine set out his forces as per
instructions set down in The Good Lord's standing orders for the invasion of zululand which he gave to all the
column commanders dated Dec 1878 from memory . Clearly these instructions were inadequate to say the least. There is no
mention of the British Square as it was considered old hat by this stage . No mention of Laager's , entrenchments
etc etc . The exact date of these instuctions is 23 /12 / 78 , almost a month to the day , we have 1500 dead British
and other forces lying on the blood stained ground of Isandlwana . I will post a link and please someone purchase
this , as it is very important to read and post so OTHERS on this forum can see for themselves how the disaster
was inevitable Suspect . I have no idea how to post this stuff Idea

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Take note of the opening article , also other articles which have had airing on the forum recently , ie - Addendorf .
These journals are well worth the money , many fascinating subjects concerning the zulu war . I have no qualms
about reccomending the series there are 16 editions available in this form , others are available on the net , but
you need to be a member to access them as far as I'm aware .
If someone does have this edition can they please post the Chelmsford Article .
cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7585
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySun Aug 01, 2010 11:19 am

Impi
Have to agree with 90th.
However on the day of the battle the key moment was the left horn outflanking the mounted detachment. They outflanked Charlie Pope, Durbford and the mounted detachment extended the line but the Zulu just kept extended their enveloping move across the plain. Eventually they had force of numbers to push and push untill the mounted detachment had to retire in doing so they exposed Popes right flank. He had to wheel his force to try and protect the lines rear. That opened up the entire front of the camp to the left flank. The extreme left was defended for a while by the Durnford /Pullen stand.
Effectivly the battle was then over.
There was no ammo shortage, the firing line wasnt to spread out. If it had been merely a frontal assault the firing line could have held all day. Those two horns of the buffalo did exactly what iShaka designed them for.

Regards
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mons14

mons14

Posts : 101
Join date : 2009-10-28

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PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 7:28 pm

A short excerpt from Mike Snook's book which I think plays well into this thread:

'...There was a very brief moment when the situation in front of the camp could have been saved. Had Durnford's command rallied enmass in the saddle, and ammunition had been brought up quickly, then the right might have been held, enabling the 24th to complete its withdrawl in good order, though G Company was doomed in any scenario. The fact is, though, that Durnford lost control, and most of his men fled the field. These early fugitives behaved reprehensibly, for the issue was not yet settled beyond a doubt. From the very instant that Durnford's men failed to rally, however defeat became inevitable.'

mons
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ADMIN

ADMIN

Posts : 3950
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 61
Location : KENT

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PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 8:02 pm

Hi Mons14.

Its this based on fact. Or what may have happen.
Quote :
" Durnford lost control, and most of his men fled the field"
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mons14

mons14

Posts : 101
Join date : 2009-10-28

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 8:36 pm

The author, like all Isandlwana authors/historians develop conclusions based on surviving facts and logical speculation. Sadly the whole battle of Isandlwana is largely left to speculation.

So yes, strickly speaking this is what might have happened. At the end of the day, what you choose to believe is your own choice. However the following passage is what I thought was most important to this thread,

From the very instant that Durnford's men failed to rally, however defeat became inevitable

This statement is in keeping with what most historians believe is true: The moment of Durnford's retreat, and the opening up of the right is the moment that battle left British control.

Here are some numbers that seem to help support the authors conclusions, now I know not all of these men were directly with Durnford - I think it was just the 1st. Bn. 1st. Regt. NNC, but the numbers of thoes survived is pretty large:

Natal Mounted Police
Strength: 2 Officers and 34 men.
Killed: 2 Officers and 25 men
Survived: 0 Officers and 10 men

1st Bn. 1st Regt. NNC
Strength: 5 Officers 318 men
Killed: 2 Officers and 10 men
Survived: 2 Officers 308 men

1st. Bn. 3rd Regt. NNC
Stength: 11 Officers 231 men
Killed: 8 Officers and 28 men
Survived: 2 Officers 208 men

2nd Bn. 3rd Regt. NNC
Strength: 9 Officers and 328 men
Killed: 9 Officers and 28 men
Survived: 0 Officers and 300 men

Natal Native Mounted Contingent
Stength: 6 Officers and 257 men
Killed: 1 Officer 27 men
Survived: 5 Officers and 200 men


On a side note - wouldnt it have been fantastic if all thoes survivors would have been interviewed after the fact....How much more would we know to today???

mons
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impi

impi

Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 40

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PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 9:08 pm

He didn't have much luck at Bushman's River Pass

Where he showed great courage but received two assegai stabs, one in his side, the other in his elbow; severing a nerve thus paralysing his left under-arm and hand for the rest of his life. Durnford managed to shoot two of his assailants with his revolver and to extricate himself. His Carbineers had abandoned him, but his loyal Basuto troopers stood by him.
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impi

impi

Posts : 2308
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PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 9:15 pm

Chelmsford left around 1300 men at Isandlwana did this include Durnford and his troops that were brought up from R.D

I maybe reading this wrong.

Quote :
Natal Mounted Police
Strength: 2 Officers and 34 men.
Killed: 2 Officers and 25 men
Survived: 0 Officers and 10 men

1st Bn. 1st Regt. NNC
Strength: 5 Officers 318 men
Killed: 2 Officers and 10 men
Survived: 2 Officers 308 men

1st. Bn. 3rd Regt. NNC
Stength: 11 Officers 231 men
Killed: 8 Officers and 28 men
Survived: 2 Officers 208 men

2nd Bn. 3rd Regt. NNC
Strength: 9 Officers and 328 men
Killed: 9 Officers and 28 men
Survived: 0 Officers and 300 men

Natal Native Mounted Contingent
Stength: 6 Officers and 257 men
Killed: 1 Officer 27 men
Survived: 5 Officers and 200 men

Are these the men that were with Durnford at Isandlwana.

If you keep seeing me coming and going. Her in-doors is up-stairs ironing. Thought she was coming down. Shocked


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joe

joe

Posts : 600
Join date : 2010-01-07
Location : UK

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PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 9:46 pm

Impi,
I think it was just the 1st Bn 1st Rgt that was with Durnford, as Mons14 said before, corect me if im wrong.

And I think it was just the British soldiers who were counted in the 1300, again im happy to be corrected

thanks joe
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impi

impi

Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 40

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 11:21 pm

Thanks Joe.

How many British Soldiers took part in the battle of Isandlwana. Idea
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24th

24th

Posts : 1851
Join date : 2009-03-25

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PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 11:53 pm

At what point was the Battle Lost !

It was when the last British Soldier was killed.

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mons14

mons14

Posts : 101
Join date : 2009-10-28

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PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 1:21 am

I've checked a couple books now, and can confirm that Durnford had the 1st Bn. 1st Regt. NNC with him during the battle.

So of the 5 Officers 318 men of this unit, 2 Officers 308 men survived the battle.

Provides us with very strong evidence that supports Mike Snooks very well grounded position that:

" Durnford lost control, and most of his men fled the field"

Below is the casualty numbers for Isandlwana -

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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90th

90th

Posts : 10135
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Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: what point was the battle lost.   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 6:06 am

hi Mons14 / impi.
I have looked up the 1st Batt 1st Regt NNC in the John Young book ' They Fell Like Stones ' according to it
From that Regt he had only 2 Coy's , D and E , about 240 men.
cheers 90th.
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