The ammunition question

Quote :

24th had pioneers that could open them they had tools of all kinds,

I know there was certainly a lack of screwdrivers, the above is new to me. Could you post the primary source.

Can't find your reply, looking fr source.

You claimed then Ian Knight cleared up the ammuntion box myth, I show you Ian's reply. He did not, and that is still an on going argument.


And finally. What are playing cards made of the ones supposedly found near Pullines body.

What are photographs of the dead soldiers family made of.

What are the letters written on to and from the families made of.

What was Coghills dairy made of. And the other chaps " Dyson"

And the cheques found by the other officer, can't think of his name.

Paper!!!

Gents, I recommend a cease fire, this extract was posted today, and i feel could bring this discussion to a halt for a while.

"Extract from: Regulations for Field Forces in South Africa, 1878."

38. The means of transport for further reserves must always be at hand at each outpost, and a commanding officer would incur a heavy responsibility should required supplies fail to arrive in time, through any want of foresight and arrangement on his part."

I think that speaks louder than words..

I will review tomorrow morning regarding " Lock Down"

Quote :

I think that speaks louder than words..

You know what, I guess you right. It really does say it all

Perhaps I will open a new thread, relating to the ammuntion box myth. There's a good debate to be had there....

Hi all.

That is a very interesting extract from Hilubi's account that Dave posted at 5.38 pm.

It would imply that the camp was being taken BEFORE Durnford retreated from the donga, and also imply that the men had fallen back towards the camp BEFORE Durnford had to leave the donga.

I am sure there is something posted on the forum regarding new evidence about how far the firing line was from the camp, I seem to recall that items were found by archaeoligists further out than what has always been taken as being the firing line, and also that the companies were further apart than what was thought. When the cease fire sounded and the line withdrew back towards the camp, the NC retreated too fast, leaving gaps in the line, the Zulus saw this and exploited it, the NC saw the mass of Zulus coming towards them and legged it. Could it not be possible that the "ammo runners" (many of them being civilians), who were trying to take ammo to the firing line, also saw this mass of Zulus heading their way, dropped the ammo they were carrying, and also legged it, then the men of the retreating 24th companies picked up some of this ammo and replenished their pouches, and that is how some of them might have been able to keep up a steady rate of fire whilst retreating.

Still with you LH on this mate.

Littlehand.

Quote :

Perhaps I will open a new thread, relating to the ammuntion box myth. There's a good debate to be had there....

Littlehand. Why ammuntion boxes. What's wrong with " Ball Bags"

There was no steady retreat' they were running back to the camp as fast as they could, panic everywhere no officers to turn too, and no where to hide.

CTSG

Curling

"I saw them retreating steadily"

Higginson

"I saw the 24th were retreating also, but very slowly."

Raw

"The Company of the 24th then retired towards the tents ."

Umohti

"The main body of soliders firing and retreating on the saddle."

Uguku

"The soliders retried on the camp, fighting all the way."

LH

I'll say again, no-one walked the firing line and left a description of what they found. Its mad to suggest that
pioneers who had all kinds of tools couldn't move a single screw, Richardson and his men had been in action
before, Pullen was an ex NCO, he'd have known all the tricks of the trade, bent screws from ammuntion boxes have
been found all over the battlefield, proving they could be opened by breaking the lid and bending the screw.

Hi All .
Broken Ammo boxes , bent screws , copper bands etc etc all being found on the battlefield doesnt mean this ammo was used by the troops ! . The zulu army could have smashed these boxes after the fight when they looted the camp . A broken Ammunition box doesnt mean that it was broken and used by the troops . It could have quite easily been done post - battle . We will never know to 100 % certainty !.
Cheers 90th.

I think the ammuntion empty packet question, can be answered by Neil, he would know wether or not if all the packaging would have rotted away. Waxed paper I would say, it wouldn't.

But Littlehand does raise a good question relating to other paper items found. These would have been more likly to rot than waxed paper.

[quote="Drummer Boy 14"]CTSG

Curling

"I saw them retreating steadily"

Higginson

"I saw the 24th were retreating also, but very slowly."

Raw

"The Company of the 24th then retired towards the tents ."

Umohti

"The main body of soliders firing and retreating on the saddle."

Uguku

"The soliders retried on the camp, fighting all the way."

DB14. I think you are failing to appreciate the subtlety of the language of the British/Imperial Army officer, particularly Victorian ones and as such are reading these statements in a very naiive way.
For the phrase "retired towards the tents" for example, what Raw really meant was "scarpering frantically in shjt order."

At the Batle of Imjin River during the Korean War, British and American forces were both under attack from the Chinese. When the British officer commanding the Glosters was asked for a sitrep, he famously replied "things are getting a little sticky around here." The American commander when asked the same said "we are getting the absolute shjt kicked out of us around here, blah, blah etc etc"
Now, one of those commanders was under such a heavy weight of Chinese attack, that his position was being over run. The other was taking a small amount of effective fire from distant Chinese forces.
DB14. Can you guess which commander said what and secondly, can you guess to whom the reserve forces were sent?

Fortunately - and only since this event - army officers have been required to be much more precise with their information.

Just received my lates's edition to my library, " The Red Soldier" which contains letters from those that were there, primary sources. Haven't had a good look yet, but what I have read so far regarding SD's account in this book is completely different from what we supposed he said. Has anyone else got this book, pages 87-91..

Hi Littlehand.
Yes , I have the book but I'm not at home tonight .
Cheers 90th.

LH

Not sure what your point is ? on paper packets not being recorded ?

Only a few people left descriptions of what they saw, most of them don't mention what was on the floor, at this point the grass was knee deep, the ground was littered with over 1,700 bodies, over 200 tents had been ripped apart, the contents of over 100 waggons smashed up all over the place, hundreds of dead animals were also all over the place.

It would help to argue your point that ammuntion was be issued to the firing lines. The fact that no ammuntion packets have been mentioned adds weight to the fact ammuntion wasn't getting there. As I have said before, there are many account of hundreds of cartridges being found, those cartridges would have been wrapped in waxed paper packaging. As Neil has stated the packets are not easy to open, so they would have been ripped open using any method possible, thus leaving evidence on the floor in and around the firing lines. There is no mention of ammuntion packaging any-where on the battlefield that I can find.

No person left an account of what was found on the firing line.

Adrain Greaves, makes reference to torn ammuntion packaging though an account by commandant Brown, albeit reference to RD.

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Thanks Dave, it's interesting to note that the packaging at RD was mentioned. But as we know, they had penalty of ammuntion, the packaging torn open and littering the ground pays testament to that.

"The Red Soldier"
In his account in this book, he states " I was out with the front Compaines of the 24th handing them spare ammuntion, Bullets were flying all over the place, but I never seemed to notice them."

DB, will say this was within the letter sent to his father a few days after the Battle.

But what's confusing is, He does not mentioned, the ammuntion boxes, or his conversation will the quarter master.

"Bloomfield, the Quartermaster of the 2/24th, said to me in regard to the boxes I was then breaking open, " For heaven's sake, don't take that, man, for it belongs to our Battalion." And I replied, " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ?

Why is there a change in his account.?

LH, he says

"To cut a long story short I was out with the front Compaines of the 24th handing them spare ammuntion, Bullets were flying all over the place, but I never seemed to notice them."

Ergo, he was at the ammuntion waggons at the beggining of the fight, and on the front line for the rest.

If that were the case, he would have made that clear, in his account. He would rely on observers making speculations as to his actions on he field.

From Knight

At the climax of the battle - the 24th companies abandoned their forward positions and fell back on the tents, they were still firing heavily. The reports of survivors - including half a dozen Zulu eye-witnesses - were unanimous on this point.

LH, the question asked was this

littlehand wrote:

Was the Battle Isandlwana lost due to the lack of ammunition getting to the firing lines.

The answer is no, when they retreated they were firing heavily, when they got back to camp they were
firing heavily, when they became surrounded and cut off they were still firing heavily. Ergo if they were doing
all the above then the battle wasn't lost becuase of ammuntion.

The whole reason behind this discussion is to identify is there was a problem with the ammuntion supply, no one is doubting that ammuntion wasn't getting through to some of the firing lines. But enough wasn't getting through to keep the Zulu's in check. Most of the witness only heard the firing, but like I have said before what they heard could have been a mixture of Zulu, Coloinal & British fire. Smith-Dorrient himself says " The Zulu's nearly all had fire arms of some kind and lots of ammuntion."

LH

Your speculating, the Zulus all record how the fire had them pinned down, they couldn't move, then the
British retreated and Zulus got up and charged.

The reason for the retreat was

1. Outflanked on the right by 5,000 Zulus
2. The NNC and NNH on the line breaking and leaving gaps
3. Thousands of Zulus about to attack the camp from the rear
4. The Zulus getting closer to the line.

littlehand wrote:

Smith-Dorrient himself says " The Zulu's nearly all had fire arms of some kind and lots of ammuntion."

I'm starting to think there's two or three SD's out there

"It was a marvellous sight, line upon line of men in slightly extended order, one behind the other, firing as they came along, for a few of them had firearms, bearing all before them." Smith-Dorien in Memories of Forty-Eight Years Service

online here
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I think there are 2

A letter to his farther the day after the fight

An account writen some 40 years later for the SWB.

It was probably at the point where the men had expended most if not all of thier ammuntion,and falling back with no ammuntion in thier pouches.

If you can imagine a few hundred men with say 10 rounds each. Falling back over rough terrain, it would have to be done slowly, but they still had the ability to fire off a few hundred rounds between them at intervals, That would be enough to keep the Zulus pinned down. Of course. There was more than a few hundred firing In to th Zulus.

Admin

Lock it, there's no point in carrying on, i've said what i have to say.

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:

I think there are 2

A letter to his farther the day after the fight

An account writen some 40 years later for the SWB.

Thanks.

And which is that he said (or rather not said) before the court of enquiry:

"6th Evidence. - Lieutenant Smith-Dorrien, 95th Regiment, states : I am Transport Officer with No. 3 Column. On the morning of the 22nd I was sent with a Despatch from the General to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, the Despatch was an order to join the camp at Isandlwana as soon as possible, as a large Zulu force was near it. I have no particulars to mention besides."

Opposed to the other instances it seems he was quite reluctant here ...

Wrong there, he had 3

The court of enquiry:

A letter to his farther the day after the fight

An account writen some 40 years later for the SWB.

And every one different.

Court of enquiry being the shortest statement.

Is this realy all he said ?

"6th Evidence. - Lieutenant Smith-Dorrien, 95th Regiment, states : I am Transport Officer with No. 3 Column. On the morning of the 22nd I was sent with a Despatch from the General to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, the Despatch was an order to join the camp at Isandlwana as soon as possible, as a large Zulu force was near it. I have no particulars to mention besides."

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:

Is this realy all he said ?

"6th Evidence. - Lieutenant Smith-Dorrien, 95th Regiment, states : I am Transport Officer with No. 3 Column. On the morning of the 22nd I was sent with a Despatch from the General to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, the Despatch was an order to join the camp at Isandlwana as soon as possible, as a large Zulu force was near it. I have no particulars to mention besides."

Irritating, isn't it? But as far as I know yes and funny enough it's only thanks to his name that it's not shorter than Glyn's ... who wasn't even there.

"2nd Evidence. - Colonel Glyn, C.B., states: From the time the column under my command crossed the border I was in the habit of receiving instructions from the Lieutenant-General Commanding as to the movements of the column, and I accompanied him on most of the patrols and reconnaissances carried out by him. I corroborate Major Clery's statement."

DB. Now hopefully you can see the dialema. His first statement was as the thinredlineMOD posted.

2nd) He putts himself on the front line dodging bullets,which he didn't notice.
And using his revolver with deadly effect against the Zulus during his escape.

3) 48 years later, he puts himself on a waggon breaking open ammuntion boxes. Sending packets of ammuntion to the line.

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:

From Knight

At the climax of the battle - the 24th companies abandoned their forward positions and fell back on the tents, they were still firing heavily. The reports of survivors - including half a dozen Zulu eye-witnesses - were unanimous on this point.

DB14, I repeat.
At the Batle of Imjin River during the Korean War, British and American forces were both under attack from the Chinese. When the British officer commanding the Glosters was asked for a sitrep, he famously replied "things are getting a little sticky around here." The American commander when asked the same said "we are getting the absolute shjt kicked out of us around here, blah, blah etc etc"
Now, one of those commanders was under such a heavy weight of Chinese attack, that his position was being over run. The other was taking a small amount of effective fire from distant Chinese forces.
DB14. Can you guess which commander said what and secondly, can you guess to whom the reserve forces were sent?
What does "firing heavily mean" to some Zulus who had never heard a MH round before?

Here's another account.

"This from Norris-Newman, regarding Bartons conversation with him.

"Captain Barton subsequently told me that his mounted men really fought well at first their first charge, and until all their ammunition was exhausted; they were compelled to fall back to the camp on to the camp,where they sought for a fresh supply of ammunition. Unfortunately, this was refused them by the officer in charge, who said it would all be required by the infantry themselves."

Thanks Impi. Here's another taken from the diary transcripts of  " Richard Wyatt Vause"  commarding the NNH. Isandlwana 22nd Jan 1879.

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Hi Littlehand .
I've always been of the thought that the supply of ammunition to the front line did decrease at some stage during the battle which in turn possibly led to the zulu closing in fairly quickly . One point you and others make regarding the brown Ammo wrappers needs to be taken liberally , for the simple reason the ammo packets that were seen and mentioned at R.D were seen lying around within 4 - 8 hrs after the battle , these most likely were still in the general area due to the small area used and the use of Barricades around the perimiter , at Isandlwana there were no barricades , it was a vast area , and it wasnt visited on a proper scale till sometime in may if I'm not mistaken , so plenty of time for them to have been scattered to the four winds !. To me , not finding the ammo packets at Isandlwana is '' neither here or there '' as any sort of evidence one way or the other !. Much like the bent screws which DB and others mention , as I've said several times over the course of this debate which goes back months , the zulus could have opened the unopened boxes post battle , which is of course what they CERTAINLY DID DO !
Therefore they contributed '' Bent Screws '' all over the battlefield as well .
Cheers 90th.

With regards to the packaging, totally disagree, I cannot believe that every remnant of the packaging had disappeared including the twine that held it all together. I think it's very relevant to the fact ammuntion wasn't getting through. I have seen no accounts of the actual ammuntion box being found near the firing lines, in the camp yes. But not on the firing lines.

If you look at my last post, " Vause" says where he retreated back to the camp he was dismayed that the "ammuntion boxes hadn't been opened" Why would he make this statement if it were not true. Look at Impi's post prior to the "Vause" account, Barton tells roughly the same story.

Here's an interning account.From Hill Of The Sphinx, by RWD Jackson
" Umhoti of the uHmcijo noticed that the soldiers facing him seemed to be firing low, " most of the bullets striking the ground in front of us and ricocheting over the foremost men"
So how many rounds were wasted by these well seasoned hardened soldiers. Could it be said they were wasting valuable ammunition.

We also have to remember that ther were other survivors from the ridge and not just Luckly Essex who could have given evidence to Penn Symons; Captain William Barton, and Lieutenanats Charles Raw and Richard Wyatt Vause, all of the NNH. I have posted Vause's account, and he is saying basically there was none or very little ammuntion to be had. And Impi has posted " Bartons account" We just need " Raws"

Thought I would add my bit perhaps adds merit to the fact, that the ammuntion packaging would have remained intact after the many months of laying open to the elements.

From Norris-Newman's In Zululand with the British Army:

An eye-witness gave the following account of the patrol : —

"On Friday, the 14th of March, a party of volunteers, under
Lientenant-Colonel Black, 2-24th Regiment, consisting of
Captain Symons. Captain Harvey, Lieutenant Banister, and
Sergeant Tigar, of the 2-24th, Commandant Cooper, and twelve
officers of the Natal Native Contingent, and ten of the Natal
Mounted Police, left Rorke's Drift, at 7 a.m., crossed the Buffalo
on the pont, and rode through the Bashee Valley to make a
reconnoissance of the camp at Isandwhlana. The scouts in
advance saw fires burning in the kraals in the Bashee Valley, and
disturbed three armed men with guns near the drift at the foot of
the Isandwhlana Hill, who ran off at the approach of the party.
Arrived on the now well-known and oft-described 'ridge,' a
horrible scene of desolation was spread before them, and the
still highly-tainted air filled their nostrils. After posting vedettes
on all sides to guard against a surprise, they proceeded systemati-
cally to examine the whole of the battle-field. Some thirty
Zulus were seen running from the kraal in front of the camp,
and when out of sight they fired several shots, with the inten-
tion, no doubt, of giving the alarm, and shortly afterwards
signal-fires were seen burning on the hills. The Guard-tent of
the 2-24th Regiment was first searched, in hopes of finding
some trace of the two colours of the regiment, which had been
left there on the morning of the 22nd of January last. The
tent, colours, and belts had all been taken away. They next
searched each camp in detail, and afterwards rode down by
the side of the 'donga' that ran in front of the camp; and
then still farther afield, where the different incidents and phases
of the terrible battle were supposed to have taken place, and
observed the following: The Zulu dead had all been removed.
The waggons to the number of over 100 were uninjured, and
stood for the most part where they were left. All the tents
had been burnt, cut up and taken away, the poles only
being left. Everything of value had been looted, and what
had not been taken away had been stabbed vrith assegais.
Sponges, boots, brushes of all descriptions, quantities
of books, papers, photographs, gaiters, and various other
articles were scattered about. Horses and mules were lyingy
still tied to the piquet-ropes and waggons, and a good many
skeletons of oxen were scattered here and there. The bodies
of our poor brave soldiers showed where the fury of the enemy
had overtaken them. They were all in and about the camp, or
down the path the fugitives took; not a dozen could be found
in the whole surrounding of the camp, nor in the 'donga,'
bearing out tiie testimony of survivors, who relate that while
the soldiers held the donga they suffered no loss. The greatest
number counted lying together within a very small compass was
sixty-eighty and these were in the left rear of the lst/24th, near
the officers' mess-tent. The majority were 24th men, but there
were some of other arms as well. As regards the state of the
bodies, a subject of morbid but painful interest, they were in
all conditions of horrible decay. Some were perfect skeletons;
others that had not been stripped, or only partially so, were
quite unapproachable, and the stench was sickening; with but
few exceptions, it was impossible to recognise any one, and the
only officer that was seen was discovered by his clothes. It was
considered that it would be three to four weeks before the bones
could be collected and buried. Were an attempt to be made to
do so now nothing could be done but to throw earth over the
corpses. Close to the small heap of dead bodies before men-
tioned, the colour-belt of the 1st/24th Regiment was found by
Corporal Ghroschky, Natal Mounted Police; it was the most
interesting thing found, though not perhaps the most valuable,
as Captain Symons found a large bundle of cheques belonging
to him that had not been opened. Having thoroughly searched
the camp, they proceeded to look for the two guns. One limber
was found on the road leading down the valley towards the
Izipesi Mountain, about a quarter of a mile to the front of
the camp. The other limber, much broken, was found lying
in the ravine where Lieutenant Curling, B.A., described the
guns as having been upset and lost; and the team of six
horses, all harnessed together, was lying by it; the ravine was
so steep that one or two of the horses were suspended by the
harness over the stream; both the guns and carriages had been
removed. This ravine is about half a mile from 'the ridge,'
and numbers of bodies were lying between the two. On the
order to retire being given, the party returned by the same
road, being twice fired upon, without effect, by two small parties
of natives; once as they were leaving the ravine, and the
second time from the 'krantzes' above the Bashee Valley."

Hi Littlehand .
Can I ask you how thick do you think the twine was that was used to hold the packet ? . I can tell you it was just like thin string and it wasnt very long ! . I dont see how anyone would comment on finding it as it would be virtually impossible to see on the ground , once it had been exposed to 35 deg temps for a period of time and the heavy storms that frequent that area it is little wonder that no -one ever mentions seeing it , plus the fact why would they be looking for it ?. In regard to the paper packaging I'm fairly certain it wasnt very thick and overly strong as it wasnt meant to be kept once the shells had been removed . Neil surely can shed some light on this subject . I agree with you about there being a problem with the ammo flow , I have always thought that was the case and I did start this debate back on the ' Isandlwana Last Stands Thread ' answering a question from Pascal , but what I dont understand is why you are bringing up the point about none of the empty packets or twine being found ? . Am I missing something here ? . They werent found for two reasons ; 1 / No-one really cared so therefore if they were found no -one thought it important enough to mention it , this is victorian era military without the benefit of hindsight
and 2 / I doubt they could withstand the conditions as I said they werent meant to last once they were used , unlike writing paper , Cheques , photographs etc that were meant to last a far longer period of time . As I said I'm not really sure why you think this is a valid point .
Cheers 90th.

I'm with 90th here. If the ammo packages were anything like those thin red wax-coated paper packages of todays chinese fire crackers which the streets are littered with after every New Year's Eve there won't be much to mention after four months.

cheers,
Dave

They were a lot more robust that that. I'm failing to see how 3 or 4 items made of the same organic material in the same area and climate should vary in decomposing. They would have all disappeared if this is the case, however being waxed would prolong the life so to say of the ammunition packaging.
I was hoping Neil could draw a conclusion on this theory,

LH

The fact that no paper wrapers were found, these would have been ripped to shreds, the wind would have dispersed them but that isnt the point. They were just far to indignificant to bother mentioning. There are no reports of cigsrettes, tobaco being found, there are no reports of socks or underpants or even tooth brushes. Does that mean they werent used.

LH


No person left an account of what was found on the firing line

In which case it can never be established if they were receiving ammuntion.

Were else would it have gone ? i meen realy, around 10 miniutes into the fight Wilson saw it being brought to the
Coys, were an earth else would it have gone ? Ammuntion boxes arrived at the line, Ian Knight dug them up.

If a disoganized unit like the NNC can be resupplied then i think its pretty absurd to surpose a war experienced
battalion like the 24th couldn't even supply there own firing line.

Ammuntion boxes arrived at the line,

Quote :

Ian Knight dug them up.

And Ian Knight confirmed they were the same boxes. :lol:

Please post " Wilson's" account where he said he saw ammunition boxes arriving.

How much ammuntion do you think was being fed to the firing lines.

DB. Your normally quick to condem eye witness accounts posted by other members, or you deliberately avoiding giving a response.

I would like to know you view on the "Vause "account post by LH yesterday.

The bit thats important

"Fortunatly one of my men came across a box already open which i distributed among my troop."