Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th

Subject: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:09 pm

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Source: J.P Makinnon & S.H Shadbolt

Further Information would be appricated.

Posts : 2594 Join date : 2009-04-24

Littlehand. There's some information on Francis Freeman White on Mike Snook's: Notes on the Composition of the British Force at Isandlwana By Lt. Col. Mike Snook.

Page 2 at the bottom. Click on link.

http://1879zuluwar.forumotion.com/t3412-notes-on-the-composition-of-the-british-force-at-isandlwana-by-lt-col-mike-snook#15887

Thanks CTSG. There doe's not seemed to be to much information on Francis Freeman White. Tried lots of avenue's coming up with nothing. Thanks for looking anyway.

White was in the 1st battalion 24th Regiment, NOT the 2nd battalion.
In 1878 the Army Pay Department was formed which incorporated all regimental paymasters. It might be assumed that White had been transferred to this new unit, technically speaking.

Subject: Francis Freeman White. Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:50 pm

Hi Julian.
I saw the F.F.White picture listed at the Waddington auction on the RDVC Forum and would like to have it !!. But , Alas I wont be bidding . Idea

.
cheers 90th.

Posts : 420 Join date : 2011-05-14

90th,

I've looked at the auction site as well, and I will not be bidding either, but for another reason.

The soldier depicted in the miniature is wearing a Royal Artillery pattern patrol jacket rather than an infantry pattern one which an officer of the 24th would have worn.

White served in the Indian Mutiny and was awarded the campaign medal without clasp, yet the officer in painting doesn't have a medal ribbon up.

Is it White? Personally I don't believe it is.

kwaJimu1879

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Major Francis Freeman WHITE - Army Pay Dept. (24th Foot)
Copyright John Young Collection.

Posts : 420 Join date : 2011-05-14

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Photo. kwaJimu1879 Collection

Hon. Major F.F. White 1st/24th during the 9th Frontier War, in an infantry pattern patrol jacket and wearing a medal ribbon for the Indian Mutiny.

kwaJimu1879

Subject: Francis Freeman White. Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:43 am

Hi Kwajimu .
Thanks again for the heads up .
cheers 90th.

No, the portrait cannot be White. It's a dead ringer for him though.

Posts : 1095 Join date : 2009-01-14 Location : East London

Sorry guys. I we talking about the photo posted form the kwaJimu1879 Collection, or the one in the auction.

Posts : 420 Join date : 2011-05-14

OH2,

I believe Julian is agreeing with me, that the miniature portrait is not who the auction house allege it to be.

I'll bet that some poor sucker doesn't follow this site and pays an awful lot for it.

kwaJimu1879

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

My thoughts exactly.

Posts : 3 Join date : 2018-12-06

Julian Whybra wrote:: No, the portrait cannot be White. It's a dead ringer for him though.

Julian would you be so kind please as to explain why in your view it is not a picture of Francis White.

Many Thanks for any insights that you can give.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

Looks like Julian can't give a reason.

Posts : 3 Join date : 2018-12-06

I cannot agree with Julian's comments about this picture. Having done further research I have come to the conclusion that this is a cut out portion of a picture of Sir Bartle Frere, with members of the 24th foot and others at King Williams Town in 1878. In the whole picture Francis White is standing 3rd from the left. The original picture resides in the Africana Museum Johannesburg I hope this gives further insight.

Last edited by Julian Whybra on Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:38 am; edited 1 time in total

Paymaster 24th Foot & John

The small photo from kwajimu's collection reproduced above (Sep 13 2011 9:20 pm) is indeed of White.
It is taken from a photo of the 'War Council', staff and 1/24th officers in the Military Reserve, taken in 1877. The photo appears in the Album of Bandmaster Burck.
Apologies, I counted from the left, but included by mistake the man seated on the far left in the number.
The original photo can be found in Philip Gon's book opp. p. 144.

Last edited by John Young on Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:45 am; edited 1 time in total

Julian,

Just for the sake of clarification this photograph in my collection has never been in the album of Bandmaster Burck. My copy was from the personal property of one of the officers depicted in the photograph. There could have been any number of prints made from the original plate.

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Sir Henry Bartle Edward Frere, Lt.-Gen. Sir Arthur Cunynghame, their Staffs, Civil Servants & Officers of 1st/24th. King William’s Town.
(John Young Collection.)

A close-up of the photograph clearly showing Francis White.

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(John Young Collection.)

The reverse of photograph endorsed with photographic studio’s stamp. Apparently the studio of Crewes & Van Laun moved that address in 1878 to another address in Cape Town.

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Given those present in the photograph I would conclude the latest date it could have been taken was January of 1878. In my opinion it is not inconceivable that photograph was actually taken in 1877, prior to the resignations and dismissals of some in the photograph.

JY

Posts : 576 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon

John,

I know that General Cunyinghame reviewed Imperial and local forces at Ibeka, in the Transkei on 24th January 1878. However I think the building in the photo still exists in King Wlliam's Town which was use as the British HQ in what was called 'British Kaffraria'. I notice that Hillier (next to White) also appears in this photo.

Kenny,

Thanks for the input. It is my understanding that some the Cape Government officials in the photograph returned to Cape Town in early January 1878, their views being at variance with the Confederation policy.

Yes that is indeed Deputy Commissary Augustus Hillier, Ordnance Store Department.

JY

Posts : 268 Join date : 2017-07-21 Location : San Diego, CA

I have a few statements on the location of his body.

From Mackinnon and Shadbolt:
"It is believed that the body of Captain Younghusband was recognized by Major Tongue, lying near to that of Major White, when Colonel Glyn temporarily reocuppied the ill-fated camp on the night of the battle; and the remains were identified and buried by Colonel Black, 24th Regiment, on his visit to the field five months afterwards."

Daily Telegraph Correspondent on Burials:
"Amongst the officers identified were Captain Wardell, 1-24th; Lieutenant Anstey, 1-24th; Lieutenant Dyer, 2-24th; and Major White, Paymaster of the 1-24th Regiment."

*regarding this burial expedition, Major Black in his official report states that the Officers identified as Major White and Lieutenant Anstey were "a captain and a subaltern of the 24th unrecognizable".

Historical Records of the 24th:
"Paymaster White’s body was found to the left of the 2nd battalion 24th camp. He had apparently been fighting with the companies on the left."

» Major F. White 24th Regt killed at Isandlwana
» Major Rose Paymaster
» Paymaster & Honorary Maj. J. Mahony 2nd Btn 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment.
» Capt. & Paymaster T. Coppinger 1st Btn 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment (Wimbledon)
» 2188. Drum Major J. P. Foote. 2-24th Foot