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littlehand

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Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet Empty
PostSubject: Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet   Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet EmptySun Feb 13, 2011 9:28 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
No copy right showed.

I didn't know the Bayonet was attached sideways.


Last edited by littlehand on Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet Empty
PostSubject: Re: Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet   Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet EmptyTue Feb 15, 2011 7:40 pm

littlehand,

Not sure if this is a case of artistic license, or an accurate representation of a Martini Henry with navy cutlass. I have looked through any pictures to which I have access, and can’t find one clear enough to see how a navy cutlass bayonet would be attached to a Martini Henry. Socket bayonets slide over the barrel and lock behind the front sight. The cutlass bayonet didn’t have a socket. There was a ring with what appears to be a locking attachment on the opposite side from the hand guard. I am assuming that once a sailor slid the bayonet onto the rifle, he would then have to give it a twist to lock the bayonet in place.

Here are a couple of photos of a British 1857 pattern bayonet:

http://www.swordsales.eu/454-British-1857P-Naval-Cutlass-Bayonet.html

Maybe Neil Apinshaw can shed some light.

Petty Officer Tom
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Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet Empty
PostSubject: Re: Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet   Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet EmptyTue Feb 15, 2011 8:00 pm

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Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet Empty
PostSubject: Re: Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet   Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet EmptyTue Feb 15, 2011 8:33 pm

Hi Littlehand

This was the best I could find at the moment.
As you can see from this drawing, the hand guard is too the side.

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littlehand

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Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet Empty
PostSubject: Re: Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet   Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet EmptyTue Feb 15, 2011 10:51 pm

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"Cutlass Bayonets - The British Naval Pattern 1859 was the first of the "cutlass" bayonets and were intended to do away with the necessity of a separate boarding cutlass. Initially these were long, heavy, slightly curved unfullered blades with sheet steel bowl guards, although later patterns were lightened and straightened. In 1871 they were converted for use with the Martini Henry rifle and were to be the basis of the aforementioned P1879 Artillery Carbine sword bayonet."
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Neil Aspinshaw

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Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet Empty
PostSubject: Re: Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet   Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet EmptyWed Feb 16, 2011 1:42 pm

The bayonet in the images from 1879 graves is the pattern '59, for the Enfield Rifle, if it was for Martini it would have a mortice slot in the pommel and the muzzle ring reduced.

In reality the M-H was designed to have a sword bayonet as standard, not a socket bayonet. During the trials, the Elcho sword bayonet was the pattern of choice, however, due to various production and decision issues it failed to get introduced, thus conversions of the Pattern 53 socket bayonet for the Enfield were adopted, and known as the P53/74, it was a stop gap, which actually became standard.

In 1875 a new sword bayonet was trialled, known as the 75 Pattern sword, it was saw backed, blade around 18", it was widely liked, but again the WD could not make a decision and only 900 were made before production stopped and the famous P'76 triangular at 22" became standard. It was simply the case of extending the P53, mainly as the Martini, with bayonet, was 5" (125mm) shorter than a Snider or Enfield with bayonet fixed and the army considered the reach insufficient.

I was not until 1884 when the Enfield Martini Mk1 rifle in .402" calibre was trialled that the British Army decided to adopt the sword bayonet as standard, culmination in the P1887 sword bayonet in Mk1,2 & 3 Pattern.

The need for a sword was highlighted by the initial Sudan campaigns, so the Camel Coprs were issued the Yataghan (previously only issued to NCO's and rifle brigades) as standard.


So you have six types of sword and three socket bayonet for the MH rifle.
1) Cutlass
2) Yataghan
3) Elcho (sawback) **
4) P75 (sawback) **
5) P1887 sword (three variants + P91 E-M conversions)
6) P1888 (for Martini Metford)

** trialled but not adopted
Socket
6)P53/74 17"
7) P76 22"
8) P95 22" bushed for .303 Martini Enfield

Carbine IC1 Artillery (not cavalry, they have no bayonet bar)
P77 sawback


Artillery and Garrison Carbines Mk2/3 (from cut down rifles)
Yataghan conversion



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Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet Empty
PostSubject: Re: Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet   Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet EmptyWed Feb 16, 2011 3:31 pm

Neil,

Thank you, you have answered a lot of questions.

One last question. In the drawing oringinally posted by liitlehand is the cutlass bayonet correctly mounted on the rifle?

Petty Officer Tom
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Neil Aspinshaw

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Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet Empty
PostSubject: Re: Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet   Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet EmptyWed Feb 16, 2011 5:38 pm

Yes the mounting is correct, all swords were mounted on the right hand of the muzzle, and fastened to the bayonet bar on the front band. The idea is actually from the muzzle loading era, what you do not want to do is stab your hand when ramming home a bullet with the ramrod, hence the P53/74 curves away, and the Yataghan has a goose neck.

Only with the advent of the .402" calibre Enfield Martini Pattern A of 1885 did they consider mounting the bayonet underneath the barrel, in fact the P'91 bayonet is a conversion of that under-fitting bayonet , alas, the E-M was destined to be cancelled and the 58,000 made were converted to M-H Mk4 pattern A.
The Idea was not lost however, the SMLE of 1908 did exactly with the sword bayonet as Enfield had been pushing for two decades before, i.e it was slung directly under the barrel to provide balance
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Image of bayonet band on Mk2 MH


Last edited by Neil Aspinshaw on Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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1879graves

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Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet Empty
PostSubject: Re: Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet   Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet EmptyWed Feb 16, 2011 6:26 pm

Hi Neil

Many thanks for all the information and I hope it has answered Littlehands question Idea
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Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet Empty
PostSubject: Re: Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet   Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet EmptyWed Feb 16, 2011 11:33 pm

Informative thread. Thanks to all concerned.
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merlin




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Join date : 2014-04-07

Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet Empty
PostSubject: Re: Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet   Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet EmptyFri Apr 11, 2014 7:34 pm

 You need to study mo  You need to study mo 
Neil Aspinshaw wrote:
The bayonet in the images from 1879 graves is the pattern '59, for the Enfield Rifle, if it was for Martini it would have a mortice slot in the pommel and the muzzle ring reduced.

In reality the M-H was designed to have a sword bayonet as standard, not a socket bayonet. During the trials, the Elcho sword bayonet was the pattern of choice, however, due to various production and decision issues it failed to get introduced, thus conversions of the Pattern 53 socket bayonet for the Enfield were adopted, and known as the P53/74, it was a stop gap, which actually became standard.

In 1875 a new sword bayonet was trialled, known as the 75 Pattern sword, it was saw backed, blade around 18", it was widely liked, but again the WD could not make a decision and only 900 were made before production stopped and the famous P'76 triangular at 22" became standard. It was simply the case of extending the P53, mainly as the Martini, with bayonet, was 5" (125mm) shorter than a Snider or Enfield with bayonet fixed and the army considered the reach insufficient.

I was not until 1884 when the Enfield Martini Mk1 rifle in .402" calibre was trialled that the British Army decided to adopt the sword bayonet as standard, culmination in the P1887 sword bayonet in Mk1,2 & 3 Pattern.

The need for a sword was highlighted by the initial Sudan campaigns, so the Camel Coprs were issued the Yataghan (previously only issued to NCO's and rifle brigades) as standard.


So you have six types of sword and three socket bayonet for the MH rifle.
1) Cutlass
2) Yataghan
3) Elcho (sawback) **
4) P75 (sawback) **
5) P1887 sword (three variants + P91 E-M conversions)
6) P1888 (for Martini Metford)

** trialled but not adopted
Socket
6)P53/74 17"
7) P76 22"
8) P95 22" bushed for .303 Martini Enfield

Carbine IC1 Artillery (not cavalry, they have no bayonet bar)
P77 sawback


Artillery and Garrison Carbines Mk2/3 (from cut down rifles)
Yataghan conversion



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merlin




Posts : 3
Join date : 2014-04-07

Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet Empty
PostSubject: Re: Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet   Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet EmptyFri Apr 11, 2014 7:47 pm

I own a P1859 sawback bayonet converted to a P1879 bayonet with naval mark on it thare was only 449 converted so it seems that a few were issued to the navy. It was olso shortend the last markings were 1912. It was made by Enfield with E59 stamp. Hope this was helpful. Terry
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet Empty
PostSubject: Re: Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet   Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet EmptySat Apr 12, 2014 7:40 am

Merlin. Any chance of a photo.
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merlin




Posts : 3
Join date : 2014-04-07

Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet Empty
PostSubject: Re: Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet   Naval Brigade (Print) Side fixing Bayonet EmptySun Apr 13, 2014 8:17 pm

Dear Chelmsford Will send photo as soon as my son comes back from holiday as i am not capable but hoping my son will teach me wil send A.S.A.P
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